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Battery Backup - Get One
Stoic Joker:
Enough is enough, Judging by your joined on date & first post you joined this board for the sole purpose of launching a rather highhanded & condescending attack on me. For the “crime” of sharing the events of my day with fellow members. Your imperialistic attempts at making me look stupid have only succeeded in impressing me with your arrogance.
Feel free to enjoy your “win”, as I will not be returning to this thread.
4wd:
@bob99 - We're on the same page man, just different paragraphs... You're talking about a proper surge device that actually has power conditioning circuitry. I'm talking about one of those Cheap-O power strips (that most end users seem to end up with) that only has a breaker in it.-Stoic Joker (June 07, 2009, 10:04 AM)
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Almost all 'cheap-o' surge suppressors I've seen, (or have), use MOVs because they're cheaper than circuit-breakers.
A typical cheap surge suppressor circuit is, (taken straight off one I just pulled apart):
Battery Backup - Get One
If a sufficiently large surge gives the MOV a hard time, it will, generally, go short-circuit thereby turning on the LED and thus giving a failure indication.
If your strip has a circuit-breaker then I'd take a pretty fair guess that the circuit-breaker is there for output current overload protection. A thermal circuit-breaker is just too slow for surge suppression use.
If you open it up I'm sure you'll find a MOV is across the line to do the actual suppression.
In Australia, I believe it was regulated that all power-boards, (power-strips), have a circuit-breaker to guard against output current overload. Previously they didn't and there were some reports of fires starting by people plugging too many things into power-boards, IIRC. I'd be surprised if America didn't have a similar regulation.
Enough is enough, Judging by your joined on date & first post you joined this board for the sole purpose of launching a rather highhanded & condescending attack on me. For the “crime” of sharing the events of my day with fellow members. Your imperialistic attempts at making me look stupid have only succeeded in impressing me with your arrogance.
Feel free to enjoy your “win”, as I will not be returning to this thread.-Stoic Joker (June 07, 2009, 07:53 PM)
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Your reply to westom came in while I was typing away at this and I was then in two minds as to whether to continue or not. As it is, maybe someone will find my post relevant - so here it is.
EDIT: Stupid me, I got my circuit round the wrong way :-[
westom:
Enough is enough, Judging by your joined on date & first post you joined this board for the sole purpose of launching a rather highhanded & condescending attack on me. -Stoic Joker (June 07, 2009, 07:53 PM)
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You have assumed attacks. I have been trying to get you to stop thinking failure is acceptable. I have been trying to explain why you had damage that was never acceptable. That the battery backup did not protect the computer – just like the manufacturer specs state. And I have been trying to get you to install what is all but required in every FL building. Required but not always installed especially in pre-1990 buildings.
I have not attacked you - ever. But I have been bluntly honest. How many engineers have provided a solution AND explained why that solution works – with numbers? You have taken information that is too new to grasp (for now). Then assumed that was an attack. No. You have a bias as entrenched as the many who just knew Saddam had WMDs. Many take personally what is only the fact when that fact contradicts what was always assumed.
Hopefully you will appreciate what has just happened here. I am trying to demonstrate why the popular myths are wrong. How protection is routinely installed to not have damage even from direct lightning strikes. You had damage. That is a completely failure of any protection you thought you had. And the effective solution costs less money. A majority routinely deny this reality, in part, because the concept is just too new - even if these principles have been well established and routine for over 100 years. Deny for the same reasons why so many *knew* Saddam had WMDs.
Notice how many posts are based in radio communication. That is where most of the original research was conducted AND where the best experience is learned that applies even to munitions dumps and homes. Either you can aggressively deny what has long been the well proven technique. Or you could ask for further clarification and assistance. Why? Because the effective solution means no damage no matter what lightning strikes. And that solution also means others lesser surges are irrelevant – do not cause damage.
Your choice.
Meanwhile, others can either learn from your denials or learn from your curiosity.
westom:
Almost all 'cheap-o' surge suppressors I've seen, (or have), use MOVs because they're cheaper than circuit-breakers. A typical cheap surge suppressor circuit is, (taken straight off one I just pulled apart): -4wd (June 07, 2009, 10:20 PM)
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That circuit is incorrect. View MOV datasheets. Leakage currents are well below 1 ma. An LED requires at least 10 ma. Furthermore, 1 milliamp through an MOV is a test current for its threshold voltage - a voltage well above what should be on AC mains.
Circuit breaker does nothing for surge protection for so many reasons. CB is a device required for every power strip – with or without protector circuits. Installed only for human safety.
Thermal fuse is required so that a failing (grossly undersized) MOV does not create fire. Thermal fuse disconnects MOVs long before an MOV conducts anywhere near what might be its maximum protection. Sometimes the fuse does not work which is why most fire departments have been called for protector fires. Problems detailed in so many previous examples and in Norma’s quoted experience.
MOV is effective if it has something to divert surge energy into. That means a low impedance (ie ‘less than 3 meter’) connection to single point earth ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. No earth ground means a protector may divert that surge destructively inside the building – maybe destructively though some appliances.
Meanwhile your circuit is incorrect – is missing other critical connections. Your assumption is that the MOV can fail catastrophically. As repeatedly noted, that is not an acceptable failure mode. Again, read page one of every MOV datasheet.
How is the light connected? See the picture where all MOVs are removed – and the light says that protector is still good:
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
Shades:
@westom:
Maybe you can shed a light on this matter for me as well (at least if you don't mind explaining). But first I should thank you for the tip of the ground line through the foundation instead of cornering around it. I know for a fact that this happens a lot on construction sites.
Ok, the question. I was always told that you will improve grounding tremendously by creating a diamond (similar as in playing cards) with grounding poles. The distance between poles should be calculated because the type of earth has an effect on the calculation as well as the angles from the diamond shape.
Is the diamond also a myth?
Oh, you would likely understand it already but I should mention that the connecting lines between the poles also are in the earth and not "switched" in the electric closet. Each house in Holland has a special closet inside the house that holds the meters for energy consumption (electricity, gas and water), circuit breakers, grouping switches and main water valve. Most of the times the land based telephone line and cable (TV/radio) are also coming into the house through that closet.
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