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Battery Backup - Get One
westom:
I started the thread by stating (rather clearly) that it was damn near (but hence not) a direct hit. But never the less close enough to have a rather noticeable impact. -Stoic Joker (June 07, 2009, 12:40 AM)
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You are assuming it was only a nearby hit. However once we trace the surge path, nearby hits are discovered to be direct hits. For example, a nearby strike to utility wires down the street is a direct lightning strike to your household appliances.
A nearby hit was only 50 feet from a 100 foot long antenna. That induced thousands of volts on that antenna. So we installed an NE-2 neon glow lamp on the antenna lead. That lamp conducted milliamps of current causing thousands of volts to drop to ten. Induced surges are that trivial. A milliamp neon glow lamp is even used as a surge protector because induced surges are myths - only create damage when the electronics has no protection. All appliances contain protection that makes induced surges irrelevant. Only direct strikes cause the damage you saw. But then which one of us actually did this stuff?
Lightning strikes a lightning rod. A direct strike. Lighting traveled to earth on a wire only four feet away from a PC. That 20000 amps created electromagnetic fields only feet outside the building. And the computer did not crash. Did not even flicker. Why? Those induced surges get promoted using junk science. Those induced surges are subjective myths. Those induced surges are so trivial as to be earthed even by an NE-2 neon glow lamp. What you had was a direct strike and protection so inferior as to suffer damage.
There is a difference between us. I learned this stuff by doing it. And thinking like an engineer. You saw something. Observation alone was sufficient to make a conclusion? No. Observation without first learning how this stuff works creates junk science. Your conclusions based only on observation are classic junk science. Myths the manufacturer needs so that you will promote his ineffective products. Where is that numeric spec that claims protection? You could not provide it for very good reason. So you made a junk science conclusion.
bob99:
@Stoic Joker - Good way to say it... different paragraph.
I was trying to point out that over time, internally, a more expensive surge unit can turn into the less expensive unit (plain power strip) without knowing it.
Most surge protectors will continue to function as a power strip, even though the surge trap mechanism may have been destroyed by the power spike.
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There is no forewarning or visual indications given - just failure.
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Although there are units, typically the higher quality ones, that have a type of indicator of how the protection circuit is functioning. Some that have a separate indicator, one unit I read about says:
"* NOTE REGARDING SURGE PROTECTORS: The surge protector power switch is typically illuminated with a red light that should be on when the surge protector is operational. If the light is off but the power is on, that is an indicator that the "surge protection functionality" of the unit is NOT FUNCTIONAL and should be replaced."
Since all AC power is subject to surges, doesn't have to be lightning, and suppressors are working 24/7 it is a good idea for anyone using a surge strip to check and see if theirs provides any type of indication like this. And not get lulled into a false sense of security just because the strip is there.
westom:
Although there are units, typically the higher quality ones, that have a type of indicator of how the protection circuit is functioning. Some that have a separate indicator, ...-bob99 (June 07, 2009, 12:49 PM)
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So how did we design that? Normal failure mode for MOVs is degrading. Nothing inside a protector can report that 10% voltage change. Don’t agree? Then tell us how degradation is measured?
Another failure is catastrophic. MOV manufacturers say that failure is not acceptable anywhere. It occurs when a surge is so large as to vaporize the MOV. LED can only report that failure mode. If a surge as so large as to be indicated by the light, the protector was grossly undersized – even a fire threat [see scary pictures].
Meanwhile, a degraded protector (an acceptable failure mode) will never report that failure on its light. So manufacturers simply forgets to mention what that light really reports. Others will fill in the blanks with myths and half truths.
View this picture. MOVs are completely removed from the protector and the light still says it is good. Just another example of what that light will not report in better protectors:
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
If AC is so full of other destructive surges, then we are all trooping to the hardware store daily to replace dimmer switches, GFCIs, and clock radios? What protects the dishwasher? Have you replaced that dimmer switch today? Reality: all appliances – even dimmer switches - contain internal protection that makes trivial surges irrelevant. Those other surges are myths promoted by the naive. If those surges exist, then you are replacing electronics in the furnace how many times a day?
Install one effective surge protector to make lightning irrelevant. That same solution (for about $1 per protected appliance) makes minor surges irrelevant. If those power strip or battery backup protectors really did anything, then every poster in every reply has quoted those specs. Nobody has because no manufacturer claims that protection. And so the unsubstantiated myths and half truths (ie other surges) are posted even without citation – even without any numbers. No numbers is the characteristic of junk science reasoning.
A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Just another reason why COs everywhere in the world routinely suffer 100 surges during every thunderstorm – and no damage must ever occur. Telcos spend tens or 100 times less money to have real world protection. That means wasting no money on ineffective plug-in solutions – when even the indicator LED deceives. Those plug-in protectors are classic examples of lulling into a false sense of security. Where does it even claim to provide protection? No one has yet to post those spec numbers - for good reason.
Stoic Joker:
I started the thread by stating (rather clearly) that it was damn near (but hence not) a direct hit. But never the less close enough to have a rather noticeable impact. -Stoic Joker (June 07, 2009, 12:40 AM)
--- End quote ---
You are assuming it was only a nearby hit. However once we trace the surge path, nearby hits are discovered to be direct hits. For example, a nearby strike to utility wires down the street is a direct lightning strike to your household appliances.-westom (June 07, 2009, 11:00 AM)
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(Um…) Not even close. A nearby utility pole strike is discharged through all routes to ground (e.g. houses on the block). Being spread out lessens its impact on any one individual dwelling. Not to mention that that path routes most (but not all) of the surge current through the main system ground (which you are so fond of) … Which indeed does lessen its impact on internal devices. If however the strike hits (a tree towards the back of the house (opposite the service entry point) the system is effectively back fed which puts a rather different spin on the proverbial “ball”. The appliances now become the closer alternate routes to ground on its way to the half inch rod pounded into the soil next to the meter box.
So… just for the “record”, you are stating unequivocally that any type of surge suppression, power conditioning, battery backup is pointless, foolish and dangerous. Because all you really need is a properly grounded system, Correct?
Being that I’ve actually had occasion to tour the local Telco, and seen their array of power conditioning equipment, I find it odd that they would waste all that money and space on something that could have simply been handled by a ground wire. Not to mention all of the fabric switching and redundant systems that prevents outages from being major.
Frankly you are assuming far too much about my background. While my work experience has always been technical in nature I hate engineers. Their inability to discern theory from practice constantly causes them to sit there pontificating on what should have happened (under laboratory conditions) instead of taking into account what really did happen.
I’ve lived in Florida for 42 years, and in said time period have a great deal of firsthand experience regarding lightning and its effects of one’s surroundings. Unlike most tourists, I do not leave a streak of shit in mid air on the way to the ceiling every time there is a thunder clap.
Why you keep vacillating between your favorite pet theory and a numbers game is frankly beyond me. The only numbers that are relevant (in the very fine print) are the ones that state that any of the $X,000 protection “warranties” don’t apply in the state of Florida (Including mine which was an APC Back-UPS XS1500). This is simply because the odds of it hitting you directly are far too high for the suites to swallow (This is what “They” refer to as “Just Business”). Unlike (let’s say) Michigan which typically gets four strikes a year for the whole state. I lived there once for 6 months during their “rainy season” …cripes what a boring bunch of storms. I had to come back to Florida for sanity sake as I actually missed the lightning.
My only point is simply this; a good quality UPS is just as effective as airbags in a car are.
If you hit a tree at 10mph they are a pointless nuisance & expensive to repack (I’m giving you that one…)
If you hit the same tree at 60mph … Well now there is a damn good chance that they will save your life (the point I’ve been driving at…)
If you hit the tree at 100mph … The undertaker’s job may be a tad easier…but you is still dead. (Which is the outside extreme that you seem to keep driving at?)
@bob99 – I’m with ya man, I just hadn’t expected to be dragged into a theoretical pissing contest while trying to share the events of my day with the crew.
cranioscopical:
Gentlemen,
Thank you for these electrifying insights but the direction in which we're heading could soon become shocking.
Allow me to provide a receptacle for this debate.
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