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What the hell is OpenCandy?
kartal:
I know I said I would stop posting in this topic but this is the last one really :) I think that app103 laid out the case pretty well. Now I hope those who feel uncertain about what to think about OC, please read app103`s reply indepth.
They should not leave stuff behind, that is bad house cleaning. If I see one more OC registry-dll(without my consent) in my system I will start an anti-OC group, and not kidding.
wraith808:
Installshield (and several other installers) do the same thing. How is this any different?
-wraith808 (May 18, 2009, 12:22 AM)
--- End quote ---
Install shield does what? Does it install secret advertising network dlls?
-kartal (May 18, 2009, 12:26 AM)
--- End quote ---
No, but it installs dlls and registry entries that are not needed for the application without telling you.
mouser, I did not think that you were trying to pick on me. But the way wraith808 laid his cases sounded like he wanted to ridicule the idea little bit. I do not have any personally issues with any personality on this board :D
-kartal (May 18, 2009, 12:36 AM)
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Ridicule what idea? I'm positively stumped that anything that I said could have come across as ridicule... I was just stating a fact- that other things used during install place dlls on your system, and many of them leave them- especially things that have registration requirements. And many times, these dlls are not needed to run the application- just for registration or during installation, or, in many cases, for similar non-identifying metrics.
wraith808:
<snip />
This is like placing non-expiring tracking cookies in your registry....the kind that make the old doubleclick look like angels.
-app103 (May 18, 2009, 12:41 AM)
--- End quote ---
And again I say that many installers leave just as much information on your system, and have the same capability, though it's not used in that way (or at least I'm not cynical enough to believe that it is). Just because something could be used in that way, doesn't mean that it is, or that this was even the intent. And judging intent without knowledge is something that's negative in another way, IMO.
cmpm:
Reminds me a bit of when uninstalling some programs, it will pop up a webpage asking why I'm doing it.
That is a direct link to the net from a program, that was not disclosed upon installing.
At least opencandy is not hiding it's dll under another name. And even has a folder with it's name. Though as mentioned. I would not know the name without kartal's thread here.
In searching, i googled a few phrases-
opencandy
opencandy recommendations
opencandy registry entries
opencandy spyware
opencandy adware
No independent articles labeled it as inherently bad.
Though comments were much like here.
I could not find much posted in 2009, most from around November of 2008. OC needs to be more open as well as those that use their technology in my opinion.
Why is it I had to point out what is installed where?
And not OC's webpage.
It wasn't hard to find, which is good.
But I don't know what that dll does.
Nor do I know how to find out.
What exactly is that dll doing in it's own folder as well as other programs, after the install, nothing? Is it waiting on input? Is it sending anything anywhere?
No, Dr apps I don't see you as a tech, as in computer technician.
Unless you are just not saying. Cause you haven't said anything that leads me to think that you know much more then anyone with google and some scanners.
And most troubling is the lack of willingness to disclose the users of OC. If it's so great then why is it not revealed before installs. There's other questions not answered as well.
The fact is, it is software-one file or 20-bundled with another program. Miro and OC are not the same company. That's two software companies, count 'em.
The potential risk of escalating this practice will devastate the software vendors participating in bundling services (there will be more then OC) that sell or recommend (same thing) other products in the install process. Especially without disclosing the facts upfront.
drapps:
@kartal
"The thing is that OC installs itself(in the program directory as dll and in the registry) and does not tell the user about it even if the user does not want to install the recommended software, based on my experience."
--- End quote ---
@PhilB66
"I asked a similar question some 70 posts ago.... http://www.donationcoder....18297.msg164050#msg164050"
--- End quote ---
The fact that not ALL publishers (developers recommending other software via OpenCandy) were disclosing OpenCandy in their EULA was an oversight. It was an honest mistake and I apologize.
Effective immediately no NEW publishers will be allowed to release an OpenCandy powered installer without disclosing it in their EULA (along with a link to our privacy policy).
In addition, EXISTING publishers utilizing OpenCandy that have not disclosed so in their EULA (with a link to our privacy policy) are being notified NOW that they MUST update their EULAs.
@app103
"Let's say I install something containing OC and decline the recommended application. Then the next time because of the stuff they left on a user's system, they know what I previously installed, so they don't offer me that, and they know what I declined and won't offer me that again, either. After awhile, after a sizable portion of the world's developers are using OC in their installers (which is what they are hoping for), it would be possible to gather a pretty large list of what a user has installed on their system and what they are not interested in, in a single shot."
--- End quote ---
OpenCandy's recommendation engine doesn't function to build a database of what software people have installed on their system. It's function is to make a "good" recommendation. So if 90% of computers install "Bob's Bodacious Biorhythms" software when it's recommended by "Julio's Horoscope Creator" then statistically we (and Julio) are probably making a "good" recommendation. The inverse, if "Joe's Awesome Task Manager" recommending "Frank's Fantastic File Syncing Tool" results in zero installs then it tells us that "Joe's Awesome Task Manager" should look into recommending something else.
@app103
"But if it is harmless and not capable of doing anything, what would be the reason for leaving it and any registry entries related to it on a user's system after the install process is completed, unless it is to activate and/or retrieve other data later, such as the next install of anything containing OC?"
--- End quote ---
The OC dll is also called during uninstallation.
We provide (aggregate, non-personally identifiable) statistics back to publishers about installation and uninstallation of their software. The idea being that anonymous statistics like (a high percentage of) uninstallations can help a developer recognize if something needs to be fixed, changed, enhanced in their software (though they're going to have to reach out to their users to find out the actual reasons).
@app103
"Combine that with the data they can collect from your IP address when it contacts their servers, and they can pretty much know where you live, your connection type, what ISP you use, whether you install software at night more than during the day, on weekends rather than during the week, and a ton of other statistical data about you,too. Even without knowing your actual identity and precise street address, they can know a lot about you. This is what is not told to the user, and it's this type of information collecting the user doesn't know about and hasn't consented to."
--- End quote ---
The key words are "can collect". We don't. As I've stated previously (and as written in our privacy policy), we don't store your IP address (we do use it to determine what COUNTRY you are in), we don't care about your ISP, connection type, or when you install software. The user is told and consents to it when they accept the EULA for the publishers software they are installing.
@cmpm
"Why is it I had to point out what is installed where? And not OC's webpage."
--- End quote ---
We are currently in the process of re-architecting our entire website. Currently it has ZERO flexibility to work with content. Also, previous to me being hired at OpenCandy there wasn't a single/central person (who had time and was responsible for) getting content/information on the website. So a lot of the information I've provided here will be available on our website as well. :)
@cmpm
"What exactly is that dll doing in it's own folder as well as other programs, after the install, nothing? Is it waiting on input? Is it sending anything anywhere?"
--- End quote ---
Answered above in response to @app103. It does not send anything, anywhere except during installation or uninstallation of a publisher's software. The information sent is disclosed in our privacy policy.
@cmpm
"No, Dr apps I don't see you as a tech, as in computer technician.
Unless you are just not saying. Cause you haven't said anything that leads me to think that you know much more then anyone with google and some scanners."
--- End quote ---
Ouch! ;)
I am. It's what I've been during for years. This thread hasn't afforded me the opportunity to prove my "geek cred". But I'm around (on Twitter, now here, and hopefully I'll launch my new blog soon)... So, there will be plenty of opportunities for me to share my tech knowledge. :)
@cmpm
"And most troubling is the lack of willingness to disclose the users of OC. If it's so great then why is it not revealed before installs. There's other questions not answered
as well."
--- End quote ---
Answered above in response to @app103. ALL Publishers MUST disclose OpenCandy via their EULA. Publishers are free to decide for themselves if they want to talk about OpenCandy on their websites (though we encourage them to blog/inform their community about us!), some of them already do (I linked to some, a bunch of posts back). Also, we have "Powered by OpenCandy" on every recommendation screen and we have a link to our site in the downloader. I also mentioned earlier in this thread that we plan to have an OpenCandy link (and possibly a link to specific information about the recommended program) in the recommendation screen but due to technical issues it hasn't been implemented yet.
BTW, our privacy policy is available here: http://assets.opencandy.com/privacy-policy/ Also, if anyone wants to check out our SDK and documentation, it's available here: http://www.opencandy.com/participate/ (I didn't link to the direct download of our SDK because when it's updated the file name changes).
Thanks. :)
Dr. Apps
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