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Last post Author Topic: The entitled generation....Are they right?  (Read 20230 times)

app103

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2009, 06:45:49 PM »
In an attempt to find some articles to link to in reference to something I wanted to say (which escaped my head in the process), I stumbled across this site and have been on quite an adventure in reading, over the last 24 hours.

This is the site of George Ziemann (artist and sound engineer), someone who is rather anti-RIAA and for good reasons, which you will learn as you read the pages on his site.

Of particular note is his Incomplete History of Rock and Roll.

Be sure to follow the links. They may lead to more pages deep within his own site (packed with more info and more links) or they may lead to interesting articles, off-site (not all of the older ones are gone forever, but if you hit a 404 on an external link, try archive.org)

Here is one of particular note that I found through his site.

I have a feeling some of you may see the "music biz" a lot differently when you are finished.

I am very pro artist and for me, this 24 hour adventure just reinforced my beliefs that I am right for boycotting RIAA produced music because it hurts everyone, including independent artists that choose not to sign with an RIAA label...and I may have officially added the radio conglomerates to that list too.

Oh, and while you are there, pick up some Creative Commons licensed tunes to enjoy and share with your friends.

40hz

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2009, 12:57:09 PM »
Well...word just came in on the the Pirate Bay trial over in Sweden,

Final verdict: Guilty. :tellme:
1 year jail time for each defendant, and a total of $3.6-million in fines. The news report I saw didn't say how the fines were apportioned out.

I wonder if they would have gotten less of a slap if they didn't insist on acting like defiant little macho twits all the way through the trial.

« Last Edit: April 17, 2009, 12:59:47 PM by 40hz »

f0dder

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2009, 01:18:53 PM »
I wonder if they would have gotten less of a slap if they didn't insist on acting like defiant little macho twits all the way through the trial.
And that is actually the only thing I have against TPB (even if it's been amusing).

They're going to appeal, though, and (while I find it unlikely) I do hope the case goes all way to supreme court (or whatever it's called in sweden) and that the TPB guys end up winning.

Not because I care much about the site itself, but I don't like swedens iPRED, I don't like the general anti-privacy tendency all around, and I don't like the implications of a site that doesn't hold anything directly illegal being shut down. Who's next, google?
- carpe noctem

rgdot

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2009, 03:07:52 PM »
I am NOT saying I like this or agree, but if a criminal is staying in my house and I know he has done something, when they storm in my house they will at the very least question me.
What I am saying I am not one bit surprised they are in trouble, don't agree with it but good luck finding judges/lawyers who will not say the thing I just posted.

Darwin

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2009, 03:59:14 PM »
Enough talk! Just give me the download link and the serial number already!
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

40hz

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2009, 04:21:04 PM »
I wonder if they would have gotten less of a slap if they didn't insist on acting like defiant little macho twits all the way through the trial.
And that is actually the only thing I have against TPB (even if it's been amusing).

My grandfather used to say: You can get whatever you want - or you can say whatever you want - but you'll seldom get away with doing both.

I'm one of those people who would rather get what I want.

When I was in high school, some of us used to do a thing we called "soft parade." What it boiled down to was getting good grades, keeping your mouth shut, paying minimal lip service to the powers that be, and pretty much doing whatever the hell you wanted the rest of the time.

We got away with a whole lot more than the 'wild crowd' because everybody mostly ignored us. The wild boys thought we were boring. And the school staff figured we were the "safe ones," so they left us alone.

I'd have thought the PB4 would have been smart enough to do something similar. Lots of people trifle with unfair laws, and get little more than a frown of annoyance or an amused smile from the courts.

But the people that thumb their noses at the judicial system invariably get their butts handed to them. Sometimes even if they're innocent of what they're being charged with.

Oh well. What's done is done. We'll have to see how this one ultimately plays out. :huh:

sgtevmckay

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2009, 06:25:36 PM »
I have pondered this for a few days, and having been raised by grandparents, and great relatives, in my younger years have given me many unique perspectives.

I will start with a few quotes:
"You have to work for your freedoms"
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
"From time to time; the tree of freedom must be watered with the blood of patriots."
"If it's free there is always a price"
" 'free' is a four letter word"
And I could go on and on.

I have had an opportunity to watch and watch closely, being a Generation X'er, I have watched as the "Entitled Generation" has grown up.
I am part of the beginning of the "Entitled Generation", but the new Entitled generation has something else attached to it!
A friends son's incident sums it up nicely for me, and I will relate the story to you:
my friend's son (I will use the name David for him) came over to the house a few days ago, and he was cursing up a storm. He stated to us that while riding his bike, he was almost hit by a truck. he explained the situation to us, and after understanding his location and the maneuver that he made, I realized that he had cut off the driver, and was riding his bicycle in the middle of the oncoming lane.
I was flabbergasted, I could not believe what I was hearing, and what I could not immediately comprehend is the "fact" that he thought he was in the right.
David exudes the Entitlement Generation: he has a college education, and does nothing with it, as he has trouble understanding why someone has not handed him a 6 digit career on a platter. Therefore David is a waiter/busser at the local Casinos. David's grades and education are such that he could become and ambassador to a foreign country. He has Schools loans, and received subsidiaries from his father to support his education, but because his education has not served him any, he believes he has no responsibility to pay his loans, and when he gets warning bills, he comes to his family, and literally telling them off, explains that his failures are not his fault, therefore he should not have to suffer these harassments, and that his family should cover his expenses.
He does not understand why, or the concept, of patience or job application or interviewing skills, although we have all offered to assist.

He is also a pirate!
David will openly discuss that he downloads all types of software, music, movies whatever, and he seems proud of the fact, but in the same breath I will hear him curse the folks that would pirate software music and movies, and then sell them.

I could go on, but the bottom line is that; he feels self justified in what he does.
I believe the that we are now not only dealing with a group of folks that feel Entitled, but also a group of folks that feel They can Do No Wrong!!!
David is by no means poor by any standard and makes decent money in what he is currently doing, he recently went out and paid cash for a new Toyota Hybrid, out of his own back pocket.

It is not that they are "Right", but rather they have been doing things the way they have been doing things for so long, that now they are being told "No" they do not understand.
It is like convincing yourself of a truth, and after awhile it must be so.

As for the record companies and it's agents I think the are at the other end of the extremes.

And as we have all learned two extremes butting heads is a battle of amusement and overall damage, eventually it is the folks stuck in the middle that get hurt.

But I will point out there is a group that is missed in all this.
The poor.
I have found a lot of "poor" that pirate, and they do so based in the fact they can not afford various what have you. These folks are not Grey/Black hats, but they pirate none the less.
I am not saying it is right, but I do not blame them, especially at the expense of some of the better software.
I have acquaintances that are still running windows 98 on older systems, because the can not afford new systems, or OS upgrades, and refuse to pirate, and I applaud them.
But I hold no harm from those that do pirate, but have a consciences about what they have done.
I have a personal friend that must have pirated about $12,000.00 of software about 6 years ago. He then took what he pirated and built a business, and eventually paid for the software, and upgrades he was using, even though he knew he could pirate it. He paid.

By pirating are we taking food out of the mouths of hard working people? somewhere along the line the answer has to be; Yes.

I have a friend that has built ad-dons for FireFox for years, and recently stopped, because he was tired of the "Entitled Generation" Demanding he do this and do that.

Do I believe the "Entitled" are Right; Possibly
But only based in the fact that folks have continuously let them get away with the things that are freely offered.
Understand; the Entitled Generation does not understand the concept of respect. Respect of others and their accomplishments, and others works.

But that being said, do I believe that the Entitled, can do no wrong, self righteous are correct: NO!

One simple reason, they have not earned the right.

Even war time Vet's still pay taxes, work hard and support their countries and the capitalism  market, and I think such people "Deserve" it, and are "Entitled", but these folks never feel they should it on a platter.
I use Vet's as an example there are folks everyday that sacrifice for themselves and others that "deserve" more, that "Entitled" to at least some respect.

I feel ultimately it is a battlle of extremism, and unfortunately the various record and movie companies are right. Not because it is law, and they have money and power to manipulate law, but because they have been getting away with bilking the singers and the public for so long, it must be right.

The "Entitled" are wrong not because they are pirating, but because of the selfrighteous, 'I can do no wrong" attitude.

Although ultimately both are wrong and neither will compromise.

I will say it grinds my butt, when a person goes to a "free" software site, gets the software, does not donate to, or respect, the hard work and time that the developer has placed into the work, and then "Demands" that certain changes and updates be made.

I have no understanding of this.

I do not believe in the "Free" software.
I am poor by any countries standards, but I donate what I can, when I can.
My recent donations to DC add up about  2% of my annual income last year.
But I donated and gladly so.

I would also point out that the "Entitled" makes up for a larger group than represented. I see folks all the time complain about this and that, these people also feel disappointed they have to do anything to get their Needs and Wants.
These people are miserable and have no understanding.

On and up note though, I would like to congratulate the folks at ADOBE, they have just opened a program for the low income and students, where you can currently apply and get there new web building software for free, and a full version to boot. Apparently their is talk of expanding this to there flagship software and packages.
Now I understand that this is in the hopes that they will bill potential customers for products later on, but it is the emergence of understanding from big software sellers that is coming through.
I am just sorry it came at the expense of the current world economy.


Eóin

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2009, 07:20:18 PM »
Nicely said sgtevmckay, 'David' certainly seems like a spoiled brat. He almost sounds so extreme however that I'd seriously question the quality of his parenting. Though such people can easily come from the best of homes and yet be warped by society around them instead.

Writing some free apps myself I mostly find the world quite grateful and so I try to not let, what often amount to, personal attacks ever get to me. But the ferocity of some do take you back initially.

By coincidence I came across this message just yesterday on the Exodus Jabber client issue tracker.

Come on. Its not even worth my time jot them the issue with this version.
Peter would be turning in his grave, god bless his soul.  What you guys did
to destroy this package is unbelievable - PEOPLE - OPEN SOURCE, FREE OR
NOT, QUALITY ALWAYS COUNT - LEARN THAT!   I've been using Exodus for many
years, and only by change did I came across this 0.10 version - Wonderful I
said, lets see what what the gookids have done - WOW! JUNK!!!

Let me name the most obvious!

- Non-sticky layout - does not stay when you exit and come back.
- Attempting to bring up the plugins - POOF - GPF!

Come on people, take PRIDE in what you do!!  Just became its FREE doesn't
make you have to produce and release junk.  Gees, what this world coming to
- BUGS are an exceptable way of life - I'm tired of this baloney.

"There is no such thing as a bad languange, just bad programmers!"
    - Doctor Debug, 1986

Now I haven't used the latest version to know if the technical complaints are justified but clearly the personal insults are uncalled for. We all suffer from the like of these people.

I fear to think how many neat free applications have been abandoned not because the developer got tried working for free, but rather because (s)he became disillusioned from all the harassment. I personally made a rule for myself that every thank you should count for about 1000 insults. That approach so far has the thank yous in the lead, hopefully that will continue. :)

sgtevmckay

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2009, 07:35:42 PM »
Ouch!

I would have no truck with someone freely hanging that individual from the tree earlier discussed, I would gladly donate the rope.

Even if there was something constructive in the post, but all we have learned is that this individual is an idiot, and if there are serious issues I would not have much of an understanding as to where to start troubleshooting and debugging.

I worked phone centers for a long time, and eventually moved onto IT Administrative work at the local jail, and If one of the folks that requested anything from me had pulled this, I would have cleared my desk of all other issues, until that individual was no longer a problem to the collective work environment. As it is I did exactly that twice in 10 years.

What bothers me is that there seems to be more ond more of these people every year.
An ugly phenomenon.

40hz

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2009, 09:09:44 PM »
There's a video over on blip.tv of a speech given by Cory Doctoro (yes THAT Cory Doctoro) at the O'Reilly Tools of Change for Publishing Conference that's an absolute must see for anyone interested in the whole DRM debate.

In this presentation, Cory points out how DRM not only doesn't prevent piracy, but also gives distributors such as Amazon and Apple unprecedented control and leverage over the actual rights-holders of creative works. In the course of the speech he also explains how the music and movie industry made pirating music what almost seems like a moral necessity for many people in response to the way the industry treated its artists and customers.

An excellent and thought provoking speech. Give it a listen. It's twenty-three minutes well spent. :Thmbsup:

Link: http://blip.tv/file/1996369

screenshot.jpg

« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 09:18:42 PM by 40hz »

Ehtyar

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2009, 01:15:43 AM »
Thank you 40hz. As usual, an excellent recommendation :)

Ehtyar.

Jimdoria

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2009, 12:40:06 AM »
It's true that an obnoxious sense of entitlement does seem more prevalent these days, although how universal it is I wouldn't even hazard to guess. Certainly the one obnoxious person grabs our attention a lot more than the 50 people around him who aren't being obnoxious.

I think parenting styles do have a lot to do with it. This generation has grown up hearing "Good job!" for every tiny step it takes. You drew a circle with a crayon? "Great job!" You can spell C-A-T? "Good job!" Employers are now finding that they have to hand out a lot more "attaboys" just to keep their workforce moving forward. The idea of just doing your job because it's your job has gone out of fashion.

And people conform to what their culture puts out as the ideal. How many decades of non-stop "entertainment" featuring utter baseness, shallow selfishness, naked greed and lowest-common-denominator cruelty did we think we could consume before people started thinking that was actually the way to behave? Have our leaders taken the high road on this, or have they led the charge into the pit with a "we're always right because we say we're right" attitude?

But one final note: my wife has a book called "Generation Of Vipers" that describes the current generation as selfish, lazy, almost pathologically self-obsessed, hedonistic and unmotivated. The author forecasts a grim future when this good-for-nothing rabble comes of age and takes the reins of society. But the "current" generation when the book was written was the one born in the wake of World War I. This "generation of vipers" grew up to fight WWII, then build the post-war society that came to be regarded as the American golden age. Decades later, another book would be written about this generation, only this time the title would be "The Greatest Generation."

So I guess I prefer surly teens over surly record company execs after all. Because teens eventually grow up.
- Jimdoria ~@>@

There are two kinds of people in the world: Those who divide everybody into two kinds of people, and those who don't.

40hz

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2009, 11:43:04 AM »
So I guess I prefer surly teens over surly record company execs after all. Because teens eventually grow up.

...to become their generation's surly record company execs... ;D

"So it goes." - Kurt Vonnegut 8)


rgdot

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2009, 11:51:27 AM »
That's exactly the problem, these execs, bankers, etc. didn't appear from another planet, some were even those 60's and 70's hippie types. They take the 'getting older, have to be more responsible' way too far.

40hz

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2009, 04:03:18 PM »
I'm beginning to think this entire debate is a "generation thing."

I was discussing this issue with a friend over his house. His 16-year old daughter eventually got into the conversation. After a while, she went out and came back with her laptop, with the browser open to a webpage. The page was showing a blog at wordpress.com posted by someone (allegedly a high school student) who tackles the twin issues of copyright and 'fair use.'

After giving it a critical read, I reached the conclusion that the article displayed some of the sloppiest thinking imaginable. My friend's daughter, on the other hand, thought that the blogger cut through "all the B.S." and put the issue to rest "once and for all. "

"I thought his post was brilliant! I'd love to see THEM try and come up with an intelligent rebuttal to that!" she told us.

I shrugged and told her that despite the fact it was a fairly well-written posting, it didn't really make the point she thought it did. The arguments were weak, contained several logical fallacies, and the author's understanding of ethics was marginal at best.

Since she looked confused, I asked her if she wanted me to explain. When she said yes, I began to go over the the posting line by line to see if we were in agreement as to what the blogger was saying. Once we agreed we were both reading the same thing, I started to analyze the arguments.

Unfortunately, when I then began to systematically take the blogger's 'argument' apart, she first became defensive, then frustrated, and finally very angry. "Your generation will never understand," she said. "Because you're all just too in-doctrinated to see how THEY control the way you think."

(Sorry for all the italics. My friend's daughter is an absolute master of inflection, and I though it too good to let it go waste. ;D)

Well...when I went to school, it is true that I was 'indoctrinated' in logic, rhetoric, grammar, rules of debate, techniques of propaganda, basic citizenship, history, and philosophy.

So now I'm wondering if maybe I might have missed something in this "brilliant argument" she pointed me to:

Link to blog: http://trombonechamp...e-fear-of-knowledge/

Quote
...

Copyright infringement should not be based on fear.  Fear is a very powerful tool that is all to often exploited by governments and those in power to get the information they want stuffed into people’s minds.  Where do you think Mrs. Smith learned this information?  Was it a credible source?  Chances are it was, which brings up the question of who you can really trust.  If people stopped blindly trusting the government, what would happen to fear as a propaganda technique?  When discussing copyright, it is best to decide where your ethics are.  “Should I share an ogg (or mp3) of this out of print CD with my friend?”  “Should I consider a small violation of the DMCA a crime if I will only be using the content for what used to be called ‘fair use’?”  “Should I cite this public domain resource?”  “Should I tell my friends about this artist and give them this audio file to get them interested?”  “Should I download this BBC documentary I found on BitTorrent so I can learn about Elephant migration patterns for my report on African mammals?”  There are so many possibilities.  The government has drawn an unreasonably inhibitory line in the dirt, and used fear to enforce it.  As a result, the only way to figure out what is right or wrong is to make the ethical decision yourself.

 :)

« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 09:51:13 PM by 40hz »

sgtevmckay

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2009, 11:39:34 AM »
A couple of more thoughts here, one is relevant, one may not be, but may be part and parcel to the "current" generation, compared to generations past.

I will be 40 in June.
In my life time I have seen glorious and ugly things, our society has all manner of input to satiate appetites wondrous and gross. I have experienced both, as have most I think.
We had done this before the "internet", before the BBC, before Phone chat and party lines, we had done this to, But to what extent compared to today?
I will not tell you we wer right "then", but no one told us we were wrong!

That being said.
I remember a short time ago, before I was officially no longer hip, when there were 4 track, 8 tracks, Reel to reel, LP's, and the tape deck. I remember the days when we would record from the radio, I remember mixing music and recording for friends, I remember when I had never heard about "Copyright infringement". I remember my father recording underground real to reals and loaning them, or giving them, to friends, I remember a time when I could take my Record and record them to tape. I remember a time of high speed dubbing of tape to tape that you could purchased on a "boom box" and cut tapes for friends who had a blank handy, and copy that tape in a few minutes.

What I don't remember is the records companies and their interests complaining then; Just a few short years ago.
That is not to say that they did not, but they didn't sound off very loud.

I think it was in my generation (X ?) that we took off on the concept of recording what we want and disregarding the rest. Certain entertainment hardware made it so simple and easy, and there was no mention of Copyright infringement. There was also no apparent push from entertainment industry to have the companies that readily supplied this hardware to stop making it. I can remember electronic supplier from Koss to Nakamichi had tape to tape and media to media.

Where was the entertainment industry then, why didn't they stop it then?

I remember Beta, VHS, Laser Disc, I remember the TV commercial push that told us "now you can watch TV whenever you have the chance", I remember everyone was thrilled when HBO announced that it was "possible" to record movies and watch them later, I remember my parents recording TV series and loaning them to their friends. I remember dubbing VHS and Beta, I remember recording MTV and then from VHS to tape.

I don't remember the entertainment industry taking a stand then.
I don't remember any body getting busted for mass dubbing until the 90's.

I remember an industry that openly supported what is now called "Piracy", even advertised piracy with out calling it that. I remember an entertainment industry that supported a world of what would be become pirates, and they did so by lack of action, or by letting the various other entertainment industries advertise what you could do with your equipment; We were told we "could" or "should" record, share, trade, make it our own.
it was not until much later that we were told; hey that belongs to me and you can not do as you wish. You did not buy that to own it, you purchased borrowing rights.

I remember the first time I found out that when I bought a CD of software that it was not mine, that I was essentially renting the right to use it, and if the leaser told me to stop using it, I would have to on the spot; regardless that I paid well over $200 for the right to rent. The industry was very clear on its policy of not explaining this to the average individual.
I remember at that point that is when the various interests in the entertainment industry came forward and essentially said; hey wait you can not do that any more.
Again this is not to say that the collective entertainment industry was not doing anything, but rather there was a fundamental difference then. There was separatism in the industry, either by design or lack of action. I grew up in a society that said it was "OK" by a lack of action from the interests that didn't want this to happen. I am certain the reasons are wide and varying.
Anybody is welcome to correct me here at any time.

I remember a time when I would have thought nothing of coping a song for a friend.
I remember a time before there was the term "Internet Piracy"

I remember!

Now all that being said I would now mention the part that you may not think belongs here, but I think it plays a significant part to todays "Entitled Generation"

Again with the memory stuff:
I remember a time when if you were stuck on the side of the road; folks would stop and help. I remember a time that if I was being "bad" down the street I would be punished by the neighbor and then lord help me when I got home. I remember being in a gang, but did so within a community. I remember a world of people that would help one another when they could. I remember a world that was very much like this isolated forum. People used to slowdown and talk. I remember my parents speaking with the neighbors, I remember respect for other individuals. I remember when defensive driving was the standard.
I remember a lot of good things that I do not see today, all though I make sound somewhat Utopian, actually did exist a short while ago.

I have also seen a world where a big truck driver would pull over and help you change a flat tire a few years ago, would just as soon run you over on the side of the road today.
I have seen folks that would have stopped a child from making a really stupid mistake, not reprimand that child for fear of being sued by the parents.
I have seen children undisciplined, because the parents are afraid that the child will go to child services and have the state arrest them.
I have seen these escalate in my life time.
it is not to say that it was not always there, it is to say I have seen this scenarios grow and get out of hand.

My point.

Is the "entitled generation right"?
Yes; if only by the inaction of an industry that did not scream "Foul" earlier and try to regulate their own laws, they fought so hard to obtain.
Let's face it we didn't think we were doing anything wrong, and we were not told otherwise.
By default, and a lack of early intervention, this generation is "Right".
No body told us "No", and I still have some of the equipment that parts of the "Entertainment Industry" sold to the public from back then that would prove the industry openly supported "Piracy"

Is the entertainment industry right?
Yes; and only by laws bought and paid for.
The entertainment industry is acting like they gave us a toy, and 20 or 30 years later is returning and telling us "We want it back" or "we want control of what we gave you so many years ago"
I remember a term for this (as racial as it sounds today), we called these folks "Indian Givers" and they were despised and looked down on.

Should people be reimbursed for their hard work?
this is the only absolute correct answer.
I pay for and support those things I use, whether listed as free, donation, open source what ever you call it there is a fundamental cost to everything.
I am a firm believer that nothing is free!

I believe that the industry is wrong by their on fault.
I believe that the "entitled generation" is wrong by attitude

But if you stop for just a moment and remember it was ok then, and we passed that ok attitude on to the current generation.

and I do not subscribe to; It is never a foul until the referee say's so.
At least not in this instance.

I think that the recording industry should stop and think about all the years that they did nothing, stood by, and watched while other parts of the same industry supported the very piracy the collective industry is bitching about today.

I think that today's generation needs to learn that anything free, may have been distributed freely, but was created at the "expensive" of someones hard work and time, I think today's generation has forgotten, or didn't learn, to respect this fundamental truth.

I think the the "Entitled Generation" is not what it seems. I have seen no age limit on the Entitlement attitude.
Ultimately I seem folks of all ages that have forgotten how to respect.
Respect themselves and others.

I remember being taught/learning respect, personal space, and having to work/fight for my freedoms.
I never remember learning, or believing that I "deserved" anything I didn't work for or support.

I remember!

herneith

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2009, 07:28:19 PM »
This type of self-entitlement appears to be endemic in other areas of life such as education.  The students seem to think they are entitled to good grades for showing up to class and handing in their assignments on time.  http://www.nytimes.c.../18college.html?_r=1
SKWilliams
It's stupid proof!

Darwin

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2009, 08:23:35 PM »
This type of self-entitlement appears to be endemic in other areas of life such as education.  The students seem to think they are entitled to good grades for showing up to class and handing in their assignments on time.  http://www.nytimes.c.../18college.html?_r=1

As a former college instructor, I couldn't agree more... Really, the perception seems to be that merely getting assignments in and writing exams before the end of the school year is all that should be required in order to achieve a good grade. This stems, I think, from what seems to be common in local high schools - endless rewrites of quizzes and exams and the acceptance of assignments up to the end of semester/term. Not a very realistic preparation for the real world and definitely not a good prep for university (unless it's changed since I was a student...)!
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

wreckedcarzz

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2009, 10:30:29 PM »
It appears that I am part of the generation that is being discussed here, so I figured I would drop in my own personal examples (both good and bad, but all honest). Before you start reading, please take into consideration that this is what I have seen and done myself, and try to refrain from flaming me because of it. This is just a look into my slice of the world, and how I view it.

This type of self-entitlement appears to be endemic in other areas of life such as education.  The students seem to think they are entitled to good grades for showing up to class and handing in their assignments on time.  http://www.nytimes.c.../18college.html?_r=1

In my experience, that totally "wouldn't" be because every single one of my high school teachers thus far has said "If you show up in class and turn in [most of] your work, you will pass" or "As long as you show up and turn in your work, you're almost sure to pass" or "As long as you don't sleep, and you turn in your homework and pass the tests with Cs or better, you will pass"...

That isn't an assumption at my high school - it is told to us as fact. Naturally you're going to carry that with you to college/university because you have been told by a certified person, with a degree (!), that you can pass by sitting in your chair and doing the majority of your work.


Uneasy ground (piracy and the like):

In reference to the initial post by Josh, I have no problem admitting that I have downloaded things off the internet that are copyrighted and whatnot (not that I am proud, but at least I don't cower about it), and the FBI probably should have been at my doorstep ages ago (one of the reasons I support free/donationware - gives me a reason to pay without requiring me to [pay or pirate]). My mom even found I pirated "Quantum of Solace" on DVD because it was still in theaters when I somehow was watching it on our HDTV during dinner. However, you look at me versus the other 2,500 kids at my school, and I suddenly become insignificant. Kids left and right use "Kazaa" and "Limewire", "music store hacks" and even "pass-around" methods (someone buys or downloads & burns a disk/flash drive/etc, hands it out in class - it is then spread out via school-provided network drives, flash drives, the computers' C:\ drives, and more). Even the school ITs themselves (in their 20s and 30s) install pirated copies of Windows XP on ALL SCHOOL COMPUTERS. (Proof from my Business Foundations class computer NSFW!)


Seeing as everyone is probably about to jump all over me, I should point out that we (myself, and the people I know) still DO buy software. Lots of kids play World of Warcraft, and buy the expansions + paying for the monthly subscription. Last Friday I overheard two Mac kids in my English class talking about the girl's new "copy of iLife '09 in a bundle with Leopard." In regard to myself, a good example is that I have purchased every copy of Need for Speed I have in my possession (Undercover was not worth it though >:().

That argument likely warrants nothing more than "I have bought ALL my software though - what does SOME mean in comparison?!?!" - While you have a point, there is a saying that my dad uses a lot, and it applies to the topic of downloading/uploading/sharing digital content as well.

Quote
Locks keep honest people honest, nothing more

If someone has the determination, the skills (or connections, no pun intended :P), and the desire to, they are going to get what they want, at the price they want (even if that price is nothing).

And it is not that I, nor most (not all) of my classmates and friends believe that we are "entitled" to what we may download, copy, and otherwise "obtain" through shaky means, but that we can. For example, if I went and asked a random adult here (30+ for means of example) at DC the question:

Quote
If there was a brand new car parked outside a dealership, with the title and all other needed paperwork inside along with the keys, would you take it?
I am certain the immediate answer would be "No!"; however, you ask most of those I know that are of driving age (16-mid 20s), and the response makes no difference - it is the guaranteed pause while they coin the idea that counts.

For the technology portion: More security, tighter security, and more laws won't stop people. Only people will stop people. And people won't stop until they can afford their usual real life luxuries, plus their virtual ones, with money to spare. And that doesn't look like it is going to be anytime soon.

 :two:

(Let the flame wars commence!)

Grorgy

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2009, 11:45:30 PM »
Hey Brandon, a better question to the car one perhaps, (it isn't mine, I heard it on the radio, me hearties) is if your friend just bought a brand new car and said  "Would you like me to rip you a copy?"  your answer may change, or at least give more pause for thought.

nosh

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2009, 02:26:12 AM »
OK, time to flame Brandon!!  :mad:

Quote
For the technology portion: More security, tighter security, and more laws won't stop people. Only people will stop people. And people won't stop until they can afford their usual real life luxuries, plus their virtual ones, with money to spare. And that doesn't look like it is going to be anytime soon.

Well said! And thank you for not being a hypocrite.  :up: Hope you can hold on to that when you get to the "ethical" side of the age divide.

Darwin

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2009, 11:41:08 AM »
Well... I just spoke to a high school teacher friend and the endless rewrites/chances issue here (in British Columbia) is PROVINCIALLY LEGISLATED. WFT?!

Bring on the mediocrity  >:(

This type of self-entitlement appears to be endemic in other areas of life such as education.  The students seem to think they are entitled to good grades for showing up to class and handing in their assignments on time.  http://www.nytimes.c.../18college.html?_r=1

In my experience, that totally "wouldn't" be because every single one of my high school teachers thus far has said "If you show up in class and turn in [most of] your work, you will pass" or "As long as you show up and turn in your work, you're almost sure to pass" or "As long as you don't sleep, and you turn in your homework and pass the tests with Cs or better, you will pass"...

That isn't an assumption at my high school - it is told to us as fact. Naturally you're going to carry that with you to college/university because you have been told by a certified person, with a degree (!), that you can pass by sitting in your chair and doing the majority of your work.

Brandon, I think what you're teachers are saying is that if you show up for class, pay attention, and complete the assignments and exams you'll pass, correct? I don't see how this causes a sense of academic/intellectual entitlement. It's a very obvious statement - pay attention and do the work. Simple. Your teachers are merely telling you what they require for you to pass the course. Or is it that your peers filter out the work angle and focus on the warm body in a chair aspect? At any rate, and regardless of the answer to that question, what seems to be being missed - at least up here on the wet coast (and it is VERY wet this week) - is the deadline/responsibility part of the equation: tradiationally, one of the requirements for passing a course/graduating from high school in general has been that young adults learn to work under pressure and to complete tasks to a deadline. Failure to learn teach this lesson is going to cost us all. Big time.
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

herneith

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2009, 01:05:53 PM »
My sister is a high school teacher here in Toronto.  She is constantly bothered by the fact that many of the students lack basic comprehension skills.   School is preparation for the 'real' world as Darwin said.  You go to a job and feel if you just show up and do the minimal amount of work required, you will be okay.  Maybe so in certain types of employment.  If however you wish to enter any of the professions or trades where pressure is constantly applied to produce, you are going to be in big trouble.  Failing at various endeavors can produce two results; you will strive harder to achieve a better outcome thereby improving yourself, or, you will abandon that particular endeavor as not being conducive to your likes, dislikes or ambitions in whatever regards.  Growing up I was constantly told sink or swim, the three 'G's, get a job, go to school or get out by my parents.  A bit harsh but effective for me.  If you failed a course at school you either went to summer school to improve your marks or didn't bother.  If you didn't bother, this would diminish your overall average which in effect would influence you future prospects should you had wished to pursue post-secondary education thus limiting your employment prospects.  Yes, they did fail you despite showing up and doing the course assignments if you did not comprehend  what was being taught.  With that being said I don't purport to say that the current system or the time I attended school is better or worse.  As with anything there are probably pros and cons.  My references are anecdotal  as I am not basing any of my perceptions on research. Two of my nephews are in University and another one is in the trades.  Guess who has the best employment prospects?  It appears that the trades are not actively encouraged and as a result there is a dearth of trades people resulting in high demands for such.  The trades are not being promoted as viable alternatives to University.  To my thinking today's youth are in an unenviable position, the pressure is on!    As for pirating software movies, games etc, I suspect it has to do with lack of disposable income.  A popular refrain amongst kids I speak with is 'Why buy it if you can get it for free?'.  Their reasoning being that they don't have the funds to procure these items. Factor in peer pressure which causes embarrassment and and loss of esteem in some instances.  For many, appearances are all such as who has the latest 'thing', you get my drift.   That is the reasoning many have relayed to me.  I think many in previous 'generations' suffered from this when they were teenagers and young adults.  They just didn't have access to today's technology in order to download pirated copies of media items, software etc.  From my prospective, there is no excuse for this as someone worked to create something and presumably worked hard and should therefore be compensated accordingly.  I doubt most are exceedingly wealthy as a result of their toils.  On the other hand easy access to pirated software, music etc was not available as it is now.  Who knows if the people of my generation would have resorted to the same actions had they the current technology at their disposal? 
SKWilliams
It's stupid proof!

sgtevmckay

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2009, 02:49:05 PM »
Z
:up: Hope you can hold on to that when you get to the "ethical" side of the age divide.

I think this brings up another issue.
As I have clearly stated I am about 40, and I am aware of numerous folks around my age range the exude this "entitlement" attitude.

My set of beliefs may have also come from being raised by my Grandparents at an early age.

Either way, I guess the question becomes; where is that "age divide" today?
It seems awful blurry with a growing section of gray!

It was once said, by someone notorious that I will not mention here; "Your children will one day rule (Conquer?) you."

Have we reached that marker, and is the older generation taking on characteristics they have learned of the current generation?

Darwin

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Re: The entitled generation....Are they right?
« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2009, 04:48:28 PM »
No, sgtevmckay, while i feel that our generation is raising the next to have this sense of entitlement, I don't *think* that we necessarily share it. Turned 40 myelf a month and a half ago...  :o
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin