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Linux vs. Vista for an absolute beginner? (+related Vista/hardware query)

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Darwin:
The specs sound pretty OK for Vista, btw. RAM might be a bit in the low end, but I don't suppose they're going to be heavy users. Run the thing through vLite and they should be OK :)
-f0dder (March 24, 2009, 12:22 PM)
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DDR2 RAM is ridiculously cheap anyway... My two bits are to go with Vista and install a second stick of RAM, preferably 2GB. Vista Sp-1 is sweet with 3GB RAM...

Paul Keith:
Probably because Vista comes standard with laptops today, and XP is usually an extra expense? Besides, Vista isn't as bad as a lot of people claim (after all, I'm still running it after my 30-day immersion experiment).-f0dder (March 25, 2009, 12:07 PM)
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True but you're still left with an underpowered PC compared to XP with those specs.

Too small to read? depends on the font size used. And if the index tree is done properly, it's much easier to use than Ctrl+F'ing through a large text document (and besides, you still have full-text search with .chm - win/win).
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See, that's the thing. You don't make large text documents. You create a .txt for each specific option. Often times proper folder hierarchy goes a long way. The only time you need .chm files is if you want to bleed your eyes out learning the ins and outs of the program and even then, rarely are they as useful as a book specifically for it. These are newbies we are talking about. Most of them won't have a problem with Linux if they all just rtfm or in this case rtf.chm. Of course this doesn't happen often enough though.

Often times they just want to find a small option located in a small .txt file where it gives them a clue as to what they should do. Win-win situation would still to have small .txt files there since they're light on memory anyways and have .chm for people who prefer it that way.

For absolute beginners? O_o - bad idea. I wouldn't dare anything like that with non-powerusers. Even people that have been using computers for 10+ years but never took it beyond what they need for the office would be confused by this kind of setup.
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I think it would be even worse if you're on Linux and then you need a Windows program and wine can't emulate it well. Also remember that the Ubuntu model is much simpler to learn than XP. It both has a GUI installation guide from LiveCD and an actual LiveCD. You're also not bound to get infected by viruses because you tried connecting to the internet before installing an AV ESPECIALLY with newbies who don't know how prone to viruses Windows machine are.

I think it would only confuse them because there's a myth that people can't switch programs but it's actually not true. Often times, people just don't explore and the options aren't handed to them via clear .txts folders on the desktop kind of stuff.

Ubuntu/Mint though has some of the friendliest user interfaces especially when tweaked. Out of the box, the problem often does not come from the OS themselves but understanding how OpenOffice file formatting works in conjunction with MS Office file format.

File managers though, Nautilus is as easy but slower than Explorer. I'd personally install PCMan file manager for simplicity. File hierarchy, Linux for casual users is much easier to get because it's all in the user folder often and there's a software repository. Internet browsing still, Linux is on par especially later on when you can remove IE where the only flaw is flash slowdown.

Now combine this with virtualbox and people can start comparing two OS's side by side and learn the ins and outs of both to an average extent that when they do need to use a PC with another OS, they're not screwed. (This would also be my criticism with people using Macs primarily from an OS newbie standpoint)

All in all, Linux allows these people the freedom to learn some complex power-user habits without screwing them up while it allows people a good introduction to how Windows works and it's actually easier in the long run to go from complicated to less complicated than reverse so these users also aren't screwed out of their money by buying an OS.

f0dder:
True but you're still left with an underpowered PC compared to XP with those specs.
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Dunno about that, really. I don't find Vista to be very CPU-draining, and x4500HD is (more than!) enough for running Aero pleasantly. The only thing a bit on the low end is the RAM, but that isn't a problem either - I'd even say it's a non-issue for people who aren't going to run anything heavy. I do appreciate 2GB in my laptop, but then again that's used for Eclipse, VS2008, SQL Server 2005 et cetera - a bit more than casual web browsing and some text editing ;)

See, that's the thing. You don't make large text documents. You create a .txt for each specific option. Often times proper folder hierarchy goes a long way. The only time you need .chm files is if you want to bleed your eyes out learning the ins and outs of the program and even then, rarely are they as useful as a book specifically for it. These are newbies we are talking about. Most of them won't have a problem with Linux if they all just rtfm or in this case rtf.chm. Of course this doesn't happen often enough though.
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Navigating folder hierarchy, opening text files, and using filemanager "find in files" to look for a topic is easier than HtmlHelp? O_o

As for RTFM, that's really not something I'd expect being helpful for newbie on linux. The documentation there is often pretty bad, and definitely written with power users programmers in mind.

I think it would be even worse if you're on Linux and then you need a Windows program and wine can't emulate it well. Also remember that the Ubuntu model is much simpler to learn than XP. It both has a GUI installation guide from LiveCD and an actual LiveCD. You're also not bound to get infected by viruses because you tried connecting to the internet before installing an AV ESPECIALLY with newbies who don't know how prone to viruses Windows machine are.
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1) if you need to run windows programs on linux, you have failed and might as well run windows.
2) newbies won't be installing the OS themselves.
3) limited user account on XP or Vista (with UAC love), windows' own firewall enabled, and "virus what me worry?". If tomos adds a free AV and firefox w/adblockplus to the mix, even better.

Yeah sure, linux has come a long way and the recent distros are relatively friendly, as long as you only need to do bog-standard stuff. I wager that, knowing their needs, I could put my mother or grandmother on linux - partially because they don't need much stuff, and more importantly because I'm familiar enough with linux to troubleshoot. But I'd still go for Windows, because it's less hassle and there's a lot more people with windows experience to help out.

Considering that tomos says he doesn't have linux experience at all, I'd say the choice is a no-brainer.

Paul Keith:
Dunno about that, really. I don't find Vista to be very CPU-draining, and x4500HD is (more than!) enough for running Aero pleasantly. The only thing a bit on the low end is the RAM, but that isn't a problem either - I'd even say it's a non-issue for people who aren't going to run anything heavy. I do appreciate 2GB in my laptop, but then again that's used for Eclipse, VS2008, SQL Server 2005 et cetera - a bit more than casual web browsing and some text editing ;)-f0dder (March 25, 2009, 07:27 PM)
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Yes, but then you're starting to define the user now rather than optimize it for the user.

Navigating folder hierarchy, opening text files, and using filemanager "find in files" to look for a topic is easier than HtmlHelp? O_o

As for RTFM, that's really not something I'd expect being helpful for newbie on linux. The documentation there is often pretty bad, and definitely written with power users programmers in mind.
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Yes, it is actually. I find the right folder hierarchy is much easier for a new OS user to grasp than oh ok, tree-lines, small fonts, possible bad documentation that goes on and on, constant searches. It's like a test of willingness to grasp an OS and even though Linux's documentation is bad, if you've got a newbie that's willing to go through hell, than they can still gleam something from it.

That's the problem though. They don't. They just want to find stuff. At their pace and at their time. That's why find in files doesn't matter. It's like a real world book. The average person doesn't highlight books, they read books.

All you really need is a good fast basic finder like Everything (if you're on Windows) and that's it. Even better if they can quickly grasp the concept of launchers like FARR/Launchy/Gnome Do + RocketDock or whatever dock is used. (Gnome has a cool drawer panel applet though and Tomboy is good for Table of Contents)

Here's an example:

I have in my desktop a folder called Weekly Review and underneath it a folder called Personal Information Manager of Text and underneath it a folder called Tweaks and underneath it a folder called Browser and there contains titles/headers of instructions I found over the internet.

Seems like a lot of click for a power user but to me it isn't. Why? Terminology may be iffy but it works for me because I often don't use help files to read stuff. I often am in a help file to find a snippet of well...help. That's what most newbie users often use help for anyways. Anything more complicated...hello irc or forums and just ask.

1) if you need to run windows programs on linux, you have failed and might as well run windows.
2) newbies won't be installing the OS themselves.
3) limited user account on XP or Vista (with UAC love), windows' own firewall enabled, and "virus what me worry?". If tomos adds a free AV and firefox w/adblockplus to the mix, even better.

Yeah sure, linux has come a long way and the recent distros are relatively friendly, as long as you only need to do bog-standard stuff. I wager that, knowing their needs, I could put my mother or grandmother on linux - partially because they don't need much stuff, and more importantly because I'm familiar enough with linux to troubleshoot. But I'd still go for Windows, because it's less hassle and there's a lot more people with windows experience to help out.

Considering that tomos says he doesn't have linux experience at all, I'd say the choice is a no-brainer.

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No. What he said was he fears he might get called. Do you really expect any newbie to not call him anyways when Windows start running slow because they failed to keep updating their antiviruses?

If you need to run applications on windows, it doesn't mean you don't also run applications on Linux. That's just flawed thinking for a power user to assume that of a newbie. Some of the user-friendliest free applications are easier to set up on Linux as long as a person doesn't have a pre-defined expectation from an old Windows way of working.

For ex.

Tomboy is still the most user friendly wiki for a casual user.
BasKet Notepads, among the most user friendly mindmapping outliners for any OS.
PCMan File Manger, one of the most casual file managers for any casual user who just wants to browse folders.

Newbies might not install the OS themselves but I guarantee you, they will be calling you lots of times when Windows get hit bad with viruses. Linux is also bad there but that's why I prefer Mint. Because of it's original problem of having to disable updates in Celena because users using Cassandra updated badly, they have an improved upgrade manager that's more user friendly than even Windows Updates to a newbie user.

Also it's just bad pedagogy to not teach a person how to reformat because they will constantly call you back on it. In Windows, it's easy but in Linux, it's really easy.

As for what to worry? How about not regularly updating antiviruses? How about using IE? How about a failed Windows updates again? How about not having a separate user folder? How about not having a LiveCD?

Linux might not be perfect but it has beat Windows on many things. Oh and if you're going to annoy a newbie with LUA, won't it be better to introduce them to Linux's sudo anyways? It's basically the same manner of learning anyway except in the future newbies would less likely find ways to disable LUA out of frustration.

zridling:
I've reluctantly provided "support" for family and friends over the years and every time I hate myself, if for no other reason I underestimate their willingness to learn anything about their computer and its software. Unless you're up to it, I beg you to decouple your support for someone else's computer.

That said, there's one true fact: whatever OS they start with, they will likely stay with, and it will take a monumental mind shift to switch. If they want to continue running cheaper, older hardware over time, then I strongly recommend Linux. Mac won't allow that, nor will Windows (I'm presuming no one wants to run an 8-year OS anymore [XP]). With Linux comes thousands of free, open source software apps that also will not cost them one dime. Otherwise, they will consistently be frustrated by their system's lack of power. And if they're only going to be using it to do mainly cloud computer anyway, then Linux is set for that right off the bat with so many programs ready to go at installation and updated as often as daily.

If cost is not a factor and they can afford the proprietary overhead that comes with Windows, then go that direction. I don't recommend Macs because once you go that route, you're usually so locked in that you can't use anything else.

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