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Last post Author Topic: Why I Avoid Apple Products  (Read 20627 times)

mouser

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Why I Avoid Apple Products
« on: February 19, 2009, 07:54:14 AM »
I was curious today about iphone software development, and came across this from 2008:

Quote
Allowing Flash — which is a development platform of its own — would just be too dangerous for Apple, a company that enjoys exerting total dominance over its hardware and the software that runs on it. Flash has evolved from being a mere animation player into a multimedia platform capable of running applications of its own. That means Flash would open a new door for application developers to get their software onto the iPhone: Just code them in Flash and put them on a web page. In so doing, Flash would divert business from the App Store, as well as enable publishers to distribute music, videos and movies that could compete with the iTunes Store.

Apple's well aware of these problems, which is why the company wrote a clause in its iPhone developers' Terms of Service agreement (.pdf) that prohibits Flash from appearing on the iPhone.."


from http://blog.wired.co.../adobe-flash-on.html

housetier

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2009, 08:49:17 AM »
Which is why I prohibit Apple products from appearing in my household - with success I must add.

justice

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2009, 09:51:56 AM »
ye if you want to run anything on your phone buy an open source one based on linux, same with game consoles. But there isn't anything competitive on the market.

In my opinion they're not computers, they're entertainment devices - they're not meant to run anything on it - just like your blue ray player won't run your written programs, your games console won't run homebrew etc.

However if you buy an apple desktop / laptop you got as much choice to run things on it as a windows based one, which disproves the quotated text. What's with the apple hate?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 09:56:17 AM by justice »

40hz

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2009, 09:53:17 AM »
As it has aged, Apple (along with Steve Jobs) has grown increasingly psychotic.

(I try not to have too much to do with crazies - or their friends! ;D)

Apple's biggest problem is that it owes much of its greatness to the "shoulders of the giants" it stood on. The whole Mac "concept" was lifted from PARC research (for which I understand they paid $1); and their first truly stable OS came about when they scrapped their flaky System in favor of a Unix derivative based on the Mach microkernal.

Not invented here (NIH) is anathema to the engineers in most technology companies. Apple turned that around, enbraced it, and ultimately based their entire company on it. Which just proves how smart they are, despite the fact they can be unbearably arrogant to deal with.

But like many companies who were in the right place at the right time, Apple is not happy about it. Because deep down inside, I suspect Apple Computer worries that it is a fake.

People who are afraid they will not be able to come up with their own new ideas are always protective of whatever 'products' they currently have. Much like bands who don't continue to develop and evolve. These are the so-called 'artists' who worry more about wringing every last penny out of their current CD than they do about writing their next one. And that's because they're horribly afraid they won't be able to do it again.

Apple is afraid.

Fear can be an excellent teacher and motivator. But it can also make us stupid, selfish and ugly. It all depends on the person or group.




tomos

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2009, 10:34:51 AM »
40hz Headshrinker sorry, Shrink to the OS's

re Apple's smartness: I think they try to make things easy for the end user (do they succeed? - I don't know, I dont have one :P )
I wish more windows software & MS would try to follow that ideal ...
Tom

cranioscopical

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2009, 12:47:28 PM »
I try not to have too much to do with crazies - or their friends!

What the heck are you doing on here, then?!   ;D

Carol Haynes

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2009, 01:19:54 PM »
Have you noticed how Apple have cornered the market in product placement in US TV series.

Many people on the West Wing had Apple computers (even though the Whitehouse doesn't apparently have any), school teachers (Boston Public) all use Apple computers even when they can't afford books or a private life. My favourite was on House M.D. where the hospital apparently has an Apple MRI scanner - I nearly fell off my chair when I saw that one.

Boston Public was a funny one because there were Apple computers visible everywhere but the closing credits only credit one computer company - Hewlett Packard!

I presume they are working on the assumption that if the public see the Apple logo through the media often enough they will actually get people to believe that there is a general market out there for Apple PCs and iMacs whereas they are owned by a tiny minority of individuals and the only major market they seem to have in business is the graphics market and that's mainly for historical and religious reasons.

Oh - I suppose there is the iPod and the iPhone (both ideas stolen from other developers and manufacturers). I don't really count people who buy those as real people because anyone who buys a product where you can't change the battery must be an idiot, and anyone who pays a premium price because it comes in a plain box with only one button is either stupid or ...well stupid I guess (worth saying twice that one).
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 01:21:30 PM by Carol Haynes »

40hz

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2009, 02:21:29 PM »
I try not to have too much to do with crazies - or their friends!

What the heck are you doing on here, then?!   ;D

Well...I was on a plane flight. We hit really bad weather...then we saw this island...

And I woke up here! ;D 8)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 02:23:14 PM by 40hz »

mouser

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2009, 03:22:33 PM »
Quote
Oh - I suppose there is the iPod and the iPhone (both ideas stolen from other developers and manufacturers). I don't really count people who buy those as real people because anyone who buys a product where you can't change the battery must be an idiot, and anyone who pays a premium price because it comes in a plain box with only one button is either stupid or ...well stupid I guess (worth saying twice that one).

well i want to go on record saying that i don't feel this way.. i can see lots of rational reasons why people would buy Apple products, and there is much to admire in their approach and design choices.  i don't think anyone is stupid for buying and using Apple stuff, it's just there are a few things that prevent me from doing so.

Deozaan

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2009, 03:27:02 PM »
Have you noticed how Apple have cornered the market in product placement in US TV series.

Many people on the West Wing had Apple computers (even though the Whitehouse doesn't apparently have any), school teachers (Boston Public) all use Apple computers even when they can't afford books or a private life. My favourite was on House M.D. where the hospital apparently has an Apple MRI scanner - I nearly fell off my chair when I saw that one.

Boston Public was a funny one because there were Apple computers visible everywhere but the closing credits only credit one computer company - Hewlett Packard!

Not only that, but they've had a monopoly on the movie industry for quite some time as well. I first noticed this in 1996 when Independence Day came out.


Carol Haynes

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2009, 04:54:03 PM »
Quote
Oh - I suppose there is the iPod and the iPhone (both ideas stolen from other developers and manufacturers). I don't really count people who buy those as real people because anyone who buys a product where you can't change the battery must be an idiot, and anyone who pays a premium price because it comes in a plain box with only one button is either stupid or ...well stupid I guess (worth saying twice that one).

well i want to go on record saying that i don't feel this way.. i can see lots of rational reasons why people would buy Apple products, and there is much to admire in their approach and design choices.  i don't think anyone is stupid for buying and using Apple stuff, it's just there are a few things that prevent me from doing so.

I just feel that iPods and iPhones have become a cultish phenomenon which rather belie common sense. I cannot understand why the iPod has become ubiquitous when other media players have equal functions, equal quality in construction and sound, are cheaper to purchase and have replaceable batteries and yet struggle to sell.

To my mind it is a triumph of marketting more than product design. I know a number of people who have an irrational need to keep replacing their iPods as new models emerge - it doesn't make any sense when all they really use it for is to listen to music and watch the odd cartoon film they purchased from iStore to prove the video works.

I can see no rational reason at all to buy an iPhone with its expensive price tag, expensive service lock-in and Apple's  control freakery on what you are allowed to do with your own device! It's not as though there aren't alternatives that are probably more flexible and fuller featured at a lower price.

Jimdoria

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2009, 06:00:19 PM »
Anybody who doesn't realize that marketing always trumps technology in the technology business is either very young, not paying attention, or has severe memory problems.

I admire your stance, Mouser. I too think an open platform is better in the long run. But Apple clearly sees its sale of consumer devices as a "razor and razorblades" deal, and is doing a lot to try an keep competing razor blades out of its market.

And let's not forget that Apple got where it is because of it's deals with record and movie companies. Those guys are so paranoid they make Bill Gates look like an advocate for piracy. They would never have done the deal with Apple if Apple hadn't promised them a closed, secure platform to ensure that the criminals consumers who buy the product wouldn't turn around and steal share the product with all their friends.

On the other hand, I can't go a week of reading Lifehacker without seeing some new article about "jailbroken" iPhones, so obviously their iron curtain has a few, rather large holes in it. Geek Darwinism? Those who need to hack it bad enough can do so, and Apple winks but gets to keep a straight face when it deals with the content providers?

There's definitely a cultish element to Apple's products, but there's a practical aspect too. The iPhone really was an advancement, even if the underlying idea was not original. User experience counts for something (a lot really) and Apple's always been good at making technology that doesn't cause average users to curse and throw things. Not many manufacturer and software publishers can say that. Not to mention the cultural factor, which Apple certainly cultivates but can't exactly control. People think Apple's products are "cool" for many reasons, not just those being promulgated by Hollywood and Cupertino.
- Jimdoria ~@>@

There are two kinds of people in the world: Those who divide everybody into two kinds of people, and those who don't.

Fedorov

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2009, 06:30:48 PM »
I'm split 50/50 on this. In one way I don't like the lack of flash support and all the other lockdowns but on the other hand their products "just work" and are so easy to use.

I remember getting my AppleTV couple years ago - I still rate it now as the easiest device to setup EVER! I took it out the box gave it some power, hooked up video cables and it just worked, not even a quick glance of a setup guide required.

I've had PocketPC phones, Symbian phones, but the iPhone just makes me want to use my phone more, the interface is just gorgeous, the appstore is amazing - I've bought loads of apps, most for the price of a pint of beer and they are superb.

My wife has a shuffle, 6yr old has an original Nano, 10yr old got her an iPod Touch, I have my iPhone and also a Nano for use in gym. Even have a Mac Mini in the bedroom with SlingPlayer for watching all our channels upstairs and surfing.

Hhhmm, okay, maybe I'm 80/20 in favour of Apple then ;)

Darwin

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2009, 07:29:10 PM »
I like Apple stuff - I'm just not drinking the Apple KoolAid... That is, I get sick and tired of being told that unless I have an iPod or other Apple hardware, I'm just not cool enough. WTF? An mp3 player is an mp3 player is an mp3 player. Am I missing something? I totally get Jim's point above about marketing trumping technology, but it doesn't mean I have to like it!

Simply put, I resent the whole "lifestyle" aspect of Apple - the cultishness as others have referred to it here. No doubt if I was an Apple freak I'd resent what I would then perceive to be cultishness amongst the Windows faithful...

The above points aside - I have an old iBook G3 Dual USB running Tiger and enjoy playing with it. However, the hardware really isn't up to the software that I'm running on it (Office 2008 and the aforementioned OS X 10.4.11) so I don't go much beyond using it as a plaything. Still, I can see that with more modern hardware, OS X would be a fine environment within which to work...
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

40hz

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2009, 09:17:59 PM »
Anybody who doesn't realize that marketing always trumps technology in the technology business is either very young, not paying attention, or has severe memory problems.

While that may often be true for trivial consumer devices, I don't think that generalization applies to all technology.

(BTW: I'm not all that young; I have been paying attention; and my memory is just fine!  :P ;D )

« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 09:19:48 PM by 40hz »

Darwin

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2009, 11:28:45 AM »
Anybody who doesn't realize that marketing always trumps technology in the technology business is either very young, not paying attention, or has severe memory problems.
BTW: I'm not all that young; I have been paying attention; and my memory is just fine!  :P ;D

What was the middle bit again?
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

Stoic Joker

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2009, 06:28:45 PM »
I just feel that iPods and iPhones have become a cultish phenomenon which rather belie common sense. I cannot understand why the iPod has become ubiquitous when other media players have equal functions, equal quality in construction and sound, are cheaper to purchase and have replaceable batteries and yet struggle to sell.
Just think fashion accessory/status symbol ... and you've answered your own question. :)

I want my phone, to be a phone, nothing more nothing less. I don't need it to make a statement about me...thats what the attitude I've been carefully cultivating for 44 years is for.

...I cringe at the insanely placed Apple logo's on TV also.

Paul Keith

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2009, 06:31:39 PM »
While I agree with Jimdoria's assessment about marketing trumping technology in the tech business, I believe that as far as Apple being closed source, it really doesn't come to marketing at all and as he stated, it's more because Apple is as much a flash and bang tech entertainment company than a user friendly "stable and solid" hardware/software producing business.

Quote from: Jimdoria
And let's not forget that Apple got where it is because of it's deals with record and movie companies. Those guys are so paranoid they make Bill Gates look like an advocate for piracy. They would never have done the deal with Apple if Apple hadn't promised them a closed, secure platform to ensure that the criminals consumers who buy the product wouldn't turn around and steal share the product with all their friends.

I would also like to disagree with Carol Haynes. Apple products are still middle of the line appealing products that provide something the competition doesn't even though often times it doesn't seem to look that way. A lot of that comes from the subtle we rarely feel so important kind of need that all comes down to what justice wrote:

Quote from: justice
But there isn't anything competitive on the market.

It's kind of like the ribbon taking over some user interface. Enough people like it. Enough people are converted to it. NOT enough people who are bitching about it has created a superior interface with as much marketing and traction.

IMO the Ribbon would be dead if a new office suite came out with an even more radical but user-friendlier interface and I don't think I'm alone in saying that as far as design concepts go, there are lots of designs that could easily improve upon the Ribbon but no core "team" has really brought any of it into fruition.

Same thing with most Apple products. Smartphone companies blew it by trying to sell their underpowered (for smartphones) gadgets to the point of even alienating their niche group of PDA lovers by dropping most of the PDA-only lines which allowed Apple's Iphone to secure the market by truly embracing the PDA screen with an even more poorly designed but more powerful smartphone.

That alone is a deal seller and combined with Apple's marketing scheme, it was gold that the other companies "reacted" to and at that point, Iphone just as the Ipod became a brand already and traction was there for all the many apps that made it even more appealing to sell the gadget to people who don't even want it. Ex. the casual e-book reading userbase.

Ipod was the same. Internationally it was cheaper than Creative's line and locally, it was already much more of a brand than Creative's cheaper alternatives. Outside of Creative, many companies were mimicking Ipod's touch wheel too much or had other more major problems like Sony's proprietary drivers and when you don't create a heads and above better program, slightly better doesn't beat the established brand.

The Mac in general though IMO is just a foothold for Apple although OSX has that mystical, "Goddamn Apple for keeping it only on their hardware and that's why they'll never beat Windows, GAHHH!!! I have to buy a Mac" mystique.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 06:34:36 PM by Paul Keith »

Deozaan

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2009, 01:54:36 AM »
It's like the saying goes: "One bad Apple spoils the bunch!"


app103

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2009, 11:49:36 AM »
Up until 1999 I didn't own a computer, and I never really gave much thought to buying one.

Then in the early part of that year, Apple did something that made me sit up and take notice and make me interested in buying one....they came out with one in purple!  ;D

Unlike other smarter people that would shop for a computer based on something that was actually important, the fact that it came in purple was the most compelling reason I would have had for owning any sort of computer at all, at that point in time. And Apple was the only one to tease me with my favorite color.

But I procrastinated about it for about 8 months...just long enough for my dad to decide to give me his old P1 with his OEM Bundle From Hell™ (he downloaded everything he could find on Tucows and installed it all).

It had issues...lots of them, and instead of enjoying a life of "it just works", I was forced to learn a whole lot more than I had anticipated, with all the troubleshooting that had to be done "out-of-the-box". (this isn't a bash against PC's in general, remember that it was a used computer set up by someone that overloaded it worse than any OEM does with a new PC)

I could have been a stupid "happy Mac user" but because my father enticed me with something that appealed to me even more than purple (free!), I was instead forced to learn and tinker with things that most Windows users don't even know exists. That machine, by its very nature, forced me to become a power user....fast. It became a challenge, a competition between me and a machine, and I was determined to win.

For the last 24 hours I have been contemplating what the last 10 years of my life would have been like if I had bought that iMac. Would I be the computer nut I am today? Would I even be coding?

I was a whole different person with a completely different way of thinking, and Apple knew that. "Think Different" isn't a command, it's their target consumer. For a long time they have been very good at making pretty things that appeals to clueless people. I am not saying that all Apple users are clueless, just saying that you are pretty clueless if you consider "pretty" to be the most important or only reason to buy something, and a lot of Apple's customers do think that way. I know because I once thought that way, I almost bought a purple iMac!

Then they hold on to you by using fear to keep you, convincing you that you are happy and don't want to change that by wandering off into the scary world of the unknown. The famous Mac vs PC ads serve a dual purpose: to convince Windows users that they would rather have a Mac than deal with "scary Vista", and to convince Mac owners to stick with their product and not try anything new unless its an Apple product. It's a form of brainwashing. "Stay Clueless" should be their company motto.

Today, the most compelling reasons I have for choosing something else over an Apple product all comes down to choice and freedom. I like being free to choose from many options, and unless Apple decides to give me that, I'll continue to stay away from their products.

I want to choose my hardware, my software, and everything else...not allow a company to tell me what to use, where I can shop, what I am allowed to buy, who I can code for, etc.

Darwin

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2009, 11:59:20 AM »
Excellent post, app. I agree with everything that you've said. The SAD part is, that Apple does make nice stuff... I wish that they would loosen up a bit and try to compete on a more level playing field - but why should they? What they're doing now REALLY works for them!
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

40hz

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2009, 12:34:14 PM »
Today, the most compelling reasons I have for choosing something else over an Apple product all comes down to choice and freedom. I like being free to choose from many options, and unless Apple decides to give me that, I'll continue to stay away from their products.

I want to choose my hardware, my software, and everything else...not allow a company to tell me what to use, where I can shop, what I am allowed to buy, who I can code for, etc.

Well said. :Thmbsup: :Thmbsup:


fenixproductions

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2009, 06:21:53 PM »

OldElmerFudd

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2009, 09:34:44 PM »
While the very first computer I built in '75 used the same processor (6502) as the original '76 Apple-1, we sort of forked in direction after that. Still, I've watched Apple's progress a something of a horrified onlooker for years now. The OS had advantages when I started doing graphic work, but i found i was never comfortable with it. Each new development is interesting, though. This appeared in Windows Secrets a couple of days ago.
http://windowssecret...%26feature%3Dchannel

 ;)
Always code as if the guy who ends up maintaining your code is a violent psychopath and knows where you live.

Darwin

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Re: Why I Avoid Apple Products
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2009, 12:04:03 AM »
This appeared in Windows Secrets a couple of days ago.
http://windowssecret...%26feature%3Dchannel

 ;)

 ;D

Thanks, oldelmerfudd - I enjoyed that (hadn't bothered watching it when Windows Secrets landed in my inbox  :Thmbsup:
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin