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Author Topic: when will we eventually be able to  (Read 1725 times)
MilesAhead
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« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2014, 10:29:44 AM »

Quote
Why would petrol companies deny money from people with inferior or not specific dna?

The same reason Winston Smith could not get new razor blades.  The politics of shortage.  Winston was only a member of the Outer Party(tm.)

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Stephen66515
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« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2014, 10:36:42 AM »

hello!

when will we eventually be able to go to a petrol station, fill our car, and pay automatically, contactless, instantly?

by a system that will recognize our plate and charge our account accordingly?

ok, if you want we can enter our pin to authorise the transaction, but for me personally it isn't necessary

thanks!

Have you heard of this new invention called the wheel?

oh we don't have it here in UK
where are you based? do you have it?

You do realise we have Contactless payment available at Tesco Petrol stations amongst many many others...for the most part, ASDA petrol stations are unmanned and require you to enter your Credit Card before pumping fuel...which...to be honest...if you are refueling...you are going to be standing around anyway, so it's not like you could be doing anything other than standing there...so it doesn't really take extra time  huh

I just used BP and it didn't have any such feature! Do I need a special card to pay contactless?

Yes...you need a contactless payment card (Pretty standard with all new accounts these days - I got mine with Halifax - didn't ASK for it, but it came as part of the account - seen people with Barclays and TSB who both hve contactless available)


Just look for the logo below:

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Stoic Joker
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« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2014, 12:39:13 PM »

This to me is more of a downside to technology, when things get created solely because they can be with little or no regard for the ramifications. Or more specifically ... What problem are we trying to solve here??

To put gas in you car there is an inherent risk of physical exposure because you need to exit the safety envelope of the vehicle. You have to interact with the gas pump to select a grade, put the nozzle in the tank, get your receipt (if desired), and of course as is being discussed pay for said fuel. Now the problem here - for me - is that in the interest of...I'm not entirely even sure...an additional risk is being added to the operation by exposing the transaction to anyone in the vicinity by transmitting it through/out into the air...for the sole purpose of shaving ~3 seconds off a 5 minute operation ... Why?
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kalos
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« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2014, 12:52:21 PM »

Stoic Joker, it's not 3 seconds of the operation

In order to understand it, you just need to let your fantasy free

Imagine, which would be the best way to refuel your car?

To me, I would just go to the station, and without leaving my car, an automatic robotic arm will insert the nozzle in the tank, fill it, and I just leave!

Now what do I do? I arrive at the station and wait in the quete, I start/stop the car few times, until I reach the filling point, I open the door and get out in the cold, put the nozzle, fill the tank, leave my car open and unsecure to go to the kiosk of the station, wait in the queue, interact with the cashier, search for money in my pocket and wait for change given which can be made a mistake or put out the card from my squeezed wallet, insert it to the slot, wait to connect, put my card back again, and then go back to my car, fasten my seatbelt, etc

I really doubt it's a 3 seconds improvement

It's not about convenience only, it's about both speed and security
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SeraphimLabs
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« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2014, 12:57:02 PM »

But you open up an even larger security problem- risk of access to your entire account or other people placing transactions on your account that you have no easy way to disprove.

Just to get that tiny amount of security of not getting mugged and ripped off in the well lit and video recorded space of the gas station beside the pump.

Robotic fueling arms probably won't become a thing unless auto manufacturers agree on a standard for the placement of the fuel neck on the vehicle. Right now they are far too varied, a system would have to optically scan the car, try to find and open the hatch, try to find and open the cap, try to insert the nozzle, and the whole time hope that it isn't punching a hole in the car's body or dispensing fuel onto the ground because it missed the opening.

So unless either manufacturers standardize the height, angle, and lengthwise position of the fueling point on the vehicle, you're still going to have to get out of your car anyway in order to place the nozzle into the tank.

An optical based solution would work very nicely here, as it would require that you have already unlocked your gas door to even get access to it, and dirt buildup is a trivial issue because it is in an accessible location where it can be wiped clean if there is a problem reading it. That lets you transfer account info in a manner compatible with the handling of fuel without the wide angle interception risk of a RFID or magnetic transponder package.



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kalos
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« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2014, 02:35:18 PM »

can we agree what the target is (refilling without even getting out of the car) and that we should work to develop the technology to achieve it?
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kalos
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« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2014, 02:45:08 PM »

we need to make corporations co-operate to develop world standards
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Stoic Joker
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« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2014, 02:58:57 PM »

Robotic fueling arms probably won't become a thing unless auto manufacturers agree on a standard for the placement of the fuel neck on the vehicle. Right now they are far too varied, a system would have to optically scan the car, try to find and open the hatch, try to find and open the cap, try to insert the nozzle, and the whole time hope that it isn't punching a hole in the car's body or dispensing fuel onto the ground because it missed the opening.



Exactly...  Thmbsup As there is a decidedly finite number of times you can accidently punch a hole in a car window and fuel up the baby before it becomes a rather sticky legal issue. cheesy
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kalos
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« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2014, 03:06:07 PM »

just a ring to the hole of the fuel slot would be suffice!
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Stoic Joker
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« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2014, 03:09:25 PM »

You could use a cell phone app that uses GPS to identify which gas station you were at, punch in the pump number, and then authorize the charges for either $x.xx in gas or a fill up. But that would still take more time than just swiping your card, punching in a 4 or 5 digit code and hitting enter ... Is fear of actual casual human interaction really that rampant these days?

Honestly I still prefer cash, if for no other reason than it always works...and it's fun to see the clerk (panic) try to remember how to make change (yes that's a joke for the over 40 crowd..).
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Stoic Joker
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« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2014, 03:10:16 PM »

just a ring to the hole of the fuel slot would be suffice!

Explain that to the mother of the flaming baby.. Wink
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MilesAhead
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« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2014, 06:20:02 PM »

Hmm, there's something to be said for the old manual way of doing things.  When I was in High School my father got this sudden urge to take a break from electronics and become a gas station dealer.

In the summer it was actually fun.  Especially wiping the wind screens of hot chicks in mini-skirts.  The customer just sat on his or her ass and rolled down the window to order fuel.  The attendant wiped the windshield and if requested, checked the oil and even the tire air pressure.  There was no slot to put quarters in for compressed air.  It was free and at sufficient pressure it didn't take 5  minutes to inflate one tire.

The full service gas station had its good points.  I probably never would have gotten into auto repair except from my father's station I learned tire change, balance and oil change etc..

Winter and heavy rain is another story best forgotten.  smiley  I remember the summers.  smiley
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kalos
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« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2014, 02:44:24 AM »

A robotic arm that refuels cars in service stations has been launched in the Netherlands.
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MilesAhead
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« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2014, 04:37:43 AM »

For electric cars they can just Tesla Zap you.  smiley

There may be a long wait to "fully charged" though.
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Stoic Joker
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« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2014, 06:51:45 AM »


Um... That article doesn't actually support your position, as it primarily confirms all of the issues/drawbacks mentioned earlier.


For electric cars they can just Tesla Zap you.  smiley

There may be a long wait to "fully charged" though.

Not really, Tesla came out with that video awhile back (posted on the board somewhere) where they can now change the entire battery pack in like 1.5 minutes at special service stations.
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Renegade
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« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2014, 07:16:13 AM »

Back to auto-pilot cars...

http://time.com/3517110/end-human-driving/

Quote
Let’s Fix It: Let’s End Human Driving

My prediction is that it doesn't end well...

If it were just purely the technology as a tool, I'd be cheering. But it's not. The IoT will ensure it turns into a dystopian, hellish nightmare. And not that the IoT itself is bad - same deal there - just a tool - but I think more than a couple people here know the sinister side of computer control -- the people behind the scenes.

Again - cool technology - but serious doubts about how it will actually be used/abused.

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kalos
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« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2014, 08:17:49 AM »


Um... That article doesn't actually support your position, as it primarily confirms all of the issues/drawbacks mentioned earlier.

Why don't you get taught from the past? Problems are only to overcome them.
It's actually good that someone actually tries to develop robotic refuelling.
See the glass as half-full.
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tomos
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« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2014, 09:55:02 AM »

@kalos,
in order for something to get implemented properly, you need people with a clear vision, and with a lot of enthusiasm - but you also need people who see the problems. Those are two different approaches: if the first doesnt take the second into account, you get a botch job; i.e. both approaches are necessary.
From a practical POV,
it doesnt really make much sense that you keep trying to convert those with the latter approach, to your enthusiastic approach.
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« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2014, 12:15:06 PM »

Key notes in this article:

  • Scans a tag on the car and then looks it up in a database to determine the position and angle of its fuel neck
  • Does not work on cars with locking fuel caps- which is highly recommended and commonplace in urban areas to prevent theft.
  • Expensive technology that hypothetically increases convenience without doing anything major to save time. Station must up-front the cost.

Point 1 is another valid solution to what I mentioned before- that the arm must somehow locate where the car is fuelled at, open the hatch and remove the cap, and then insert the nozzle. Simply retrieving the car's data from a database is a valid solution of course, but this adds a tremendous administrative burden in that every time a new model of car comes out the database must be updated to support it. And it will not work at all with vehicles that have been significantly altered- and I know a good many trucks that have relocated their fuel tanks for a variety of reasons.

Point 2 is a problem that could in theory be addressed by having the robot reach around to be near the driver and request the key. But this adds incredibly to the complexity of the system, as the arm now has to be able to reach halfway around the vehicle without hitting it, accept an object from a human, then return it to the human when it is done. Robots can do this part at least, but its not nearly as easy as it sounds from an engineering standpoint.

Point 3 is that there is little to no incentive for stations to actually adopt this. The only advantage is that customers will not have to leave their car to use the system, it does not change the fuel dispensing rate nor does it add any real value to the process. It'd be a different story if it was used on a full service island, since it could handle the fuel while the attendant takes care of other tasks. Or even eliminate the attendant entirely, with the attachment for another $250,000 that allows it to automatically wash the windows check the oil and put air in the tires.

Back to auto-pilot cars...

http://time.com/3517110/end-human-driving/

Quote
Let’s Fix It: Let’s End Human Driving

My prediction is that it doesn't end well...

If it were just purely the technology as a tool, I'd be cheering. But it's not. The IoT will ensure it turns into a dystopian, hellish nightmare. And not that the IoT itself is bad - same deal there - just a tool - but I think more than a couple people here know the sinister side of computer control -- the people behind the scenes.

Again - cool technology - but serious doubts about how it will actually be used/abused.

I'm actually okay with elimination of manual driving in daily life.

However, I am not okay with cars that are designed without mechanically linked operator controls. I've seen way too many computer malfunctions to trust a computer driven car that I can't wrench the wheel away from it or stomp on the brake and make it stop before going off the cliff that it can't see.

Long as a car still can be driven on full manual, the convenience of automatic driving makes it worth pursuing.

Especially in the cities. Parking in NYC is said to be unbelieveably expensive, and even in an upstate small town I would have no problem at all having my car drive itself to the parking lot at my workplace after dropping me off at the concert hall a few blocks away for a show. Saves me the $10 I would have to pay for parking, and it'd even be able to drive me home again after the show when I've had a bit to drink.

But I'd better be able to take manual control if I see a need to, and it cannot have the ability to ignore that input.
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« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2014, 01:14:19 PM »

it doesnt really make much sense that you keep trying to convert those with the latter approach, to your enthusiastic approach.

Not to mention the futility of trying to innovate a dinosaur. Nobody is going to waste the time and effort to create a new and better payphone...because they are simply no longer needed. Gas stations are in an earlier yet much the same situation. There is no point in streamlining/improving a process that will start dying out in another 20 or so years.

I don't object to hybrids...I just find the toothless emasculated ones to be obnoxious. There are a few on the market that don't completely suck.

Hydrogen filling stations, yes.
Charging stations, yes.
Gasoline stations ... Let. It. Go. The risk/reward factor just ain't there.
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crabby3
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« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2014, 01:39:06 PM »

hello!

when will we eventually be able to go to a petrol station, fill our car, and pay automatically, contactless, instantly?

by a system that will recognize our plate and charge our account accordingly?

ok, if you want we can enter our pin to authorise the transaction, but for me personally it isn't necessary

thanks!

A vehicle-specific decal (not a sticker) on the windshield would be more secure.  Tags are stolen all the time.

A retinal scan for your PIN.

And a low-voltage metal-to-metal contact sensor for the nozzle.  Similar to the way water faucets can be turned on with a touch.

IMO all of these could work... but I wouldn't hold your breath.

I'd just settle for an at-the-pump receipt now and then.   Grin
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MilesAhead
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« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2014, 04:30:42 PM »

I'd just settle for an at-the-pump receipt now and then.

Heh.  We keep expecting exotic convenience through technology when in the US we can't even get them to put personal medical history on a Smart Card.  Just the fax mam.  Sad
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Stoic Joker
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« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2014, 04:58:02 PM »

I'd just settle for an at-the-pump receipt now and then.

Heh.  We keep expecting exotic convenience through technology when in the US we can't even get them to put personal medical history on a Smart Card.  Just the fax mam.  Sad

I take it you haven't seen the nightmare that is the medical software backends trying to align themselves with the Meaningful Use (government) requirements that are positioned to become what you speak of. Duct tape and bailing wire doesn't even come close to describing how the stuff is being slapped together ... And security?!? OMFG The things I've seen done - at the direction of a support "tech" - would make anyone with an ounce of common sense terrified to be caught with one of those cards ... You'd be safer in the jungle with a Voodoo witch doctor.
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MilesAhead
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« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2014, 05:21:11 PM »

You'd be safer in the jungle with a Voodoo witch doctor.

For grins one time I searched the Nobel Prize awards for chemistry.  You may be surprised how many were just for synthesizing the medicine the rain forest witch doctor got from the wild.  I seem to remember it being at least 1/2 dozen.  The Sean Connery flick Medicine Man was a Hollywoodization, so to speak, of the process.

Edit: I made this search back during my "news junkie" period, early to mid 90s.  Since then with the concern over the rain forest being burned and cleared I would conjecture there's a concerted effort to get as many medicines as possible before they are lost forever.  The synthesized medicines may well be in the dozens by now.  I don't really know.  End Edit


I'm sure it was shown in the best possible light, but even so this documentary I saw had a section on the system in Taiwan.  Inserting a smart card may have flaws but it has to be better than me running around in one hospital trying to get them to fax my mother's medical records to another.  I don't know what people do who have nobody to run these errands for them.  It's pitiful.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 06:09:11 PM by MilesAhead » Logged

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