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Author Topic: Culture of Computer Programmers  (Read 6476 times)
Codebyte
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« on: January 26, 2009, 05:07:07 PM »

I have decided to do my first speech of this semester on the Culture of Computer Scientists... I wanted to get some feedback from you all (to include in my speech) by this Wednesday night. Post some personal opinions concerning what you think about the Culture of Computer Scientists! Just open thoughts for the time being and if I dont get enough feedback, ill propose some questions... I could really use a few good opinions so dont be afraid to share yours!

Thanks for the help,
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« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2009, 05:12:09 PM »

great idea.  But do you mean culture of computer *programmers* or Computer Scientists?
the latter is a pretty broad subject that you might have a hard time nailing down.  the former seems more manageable.
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Codebyte
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« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2009, 05:13:46 PM »

Culture of Computer *Programmers* smiley
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« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2009, 06:59:54 PM »

Do you mean "culture" as how polite they can be or the way of living?
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« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2009, 07:47:29 PM »

It is my opinion that you ought to start with some questions to get the conversation flowing. smiley
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« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2009, 09:24:14 PM »

No discussion of our culture would be complete without mentioning cold pizza.
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« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2009, 09:35:08 PM »

Questions:

1. What do you think is interesting about Computer Programming?
2. What do you like about Computer Programming?
3. As a computer programmer, what are you most proud about?
4. If you could change one thing about computer programmers what would it be?
5. What do you think is the lifetime goal of Computer Programmers?
6. In your opinion, what is the most important thing that Computer Programmers have given the world?

That should be enough to start...
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« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2009, 12:18:09 AM »

I'm a casual tech user so forgive me if I'm interjecting. I just feel some of the questions are general enough for me to answer.

Quote
What do you think is interesting about Computer Programming?

First off, I haven't read this blog post but this might interest you: http://paulstamatiou.com/.../06/how-i-learned-to-code

Ultimately, God Mode. Less narcissistically, Productivity Mode. Essentialy, Pro-Activity.

It's this "pro-activity" that interest me most. Once you become a computer programmer, and I mean legitimately a "programmer". It is not just that you can (potentially) create anything nor is it about (potentially) being able to cut corners and shortcuts and all that stuff. It is literally "freedom". It is literally "no more philosophy or idealistic determination, once you step off that couch and start programming, you start manipulating." BAM! Instant. You're off. Lifestyle change. Application of freedom of choice. No Open Source? Learn how to code law into your program and change the world. No Freeware? Learn how to code program and screw the man. Bad support? Learn how to integrate social media or popularize social media and use your influence to change that company. It's just BAM! BAM! BAM! Instant.

I'm not talking about coding. I'm talking about "programming". Once you have that mindset, destiny says you're guaranteed to do something. It's not a guarantee to success, but it is a guarantee to impact. Ripple, Tidal Waves, Black Hole... doesn't matter. Once you get into that mindset, you become a writer who has the ability to wield the rarest and most powerful weapons so you're no longer pressured by fanboys to yield to their quality.

The world doesn't just open; it changes Suddenly you're not just a classical physicist researching on the next big thing: You've been teleported and are now knee deep into quantum physics and the world would only continue to feel your ripple the more you integrate yourself into the "programming" mindset.

Suddenly, you no longer need to be that guy in that tower defense game Immortal Defense who has to sacrifice his body to become immortal in space and put his love points in a section and his pride points in another section and have them serve as towers.

Suddenly, you are literally what that game's text describe as you win in a stage. Some guy who is now asked himself stuff like: "How does it feel to shoot those who cannot shoot back?"

Suddenly, you're now a guy who can be caught knee deep in a government conspiracy like that guy in Broken Saints but no longer need to pray to God to save a man from losing his eye-sight while he's holed up in a hidden underground base where no one but his company knows.

Suddenly, computer programming didn't just make you feel alive like anything a person might be passionate of. Suddenly, computer programming made you feel pro-active and suddenly, life just got a little easier to understand because you now have the very structure, the very plate that society has been born off, that religion has been born off, that science has been born off...ALL within the comfort of whatever it is you are trying to program. Suddenly, life is no longer about wondering where the grass is greener. Life has become the simulation and you are the simulator giving birth or operating on a test addition to life while being inside the simulation itself.

Computer programming didn't just give you the key to programming a computer, computer programming, once fully synchronize, gives you the realization that life and a computer has very little difference except in scale...and that's what's most interesting about it to me.

Quote
What do you like about Computer Programming?

The evolution. Almost everything in life has a vertical rise even among the talented ones.

In basketball, doesn't matter how great you are, if you're much more interesting you get payed more.

In MMA, doesn't matter how great you are, if you know and have been trained by a legend or is undefeated and exciting, you go way ahead in the sport.

Even in a non-physical activity like in writing, Stephen King = more publishers willing to spread his books than Stephen Queen.

EVEN a research-centric activity like science still gives authority for the big honchos to steal your research ideas or pressure you to change your passion by mob threatening your reputation and history revisioning your works.

In computer programming, it's literally as Malcolm Gladwell implied in Outliers...all you need is the right opportunity and almost the right amount of luck and you're in. Bill Gates as the book writes, didn't need to know the right fundamentals or the right circumstances, he just needed the right model to fall on his lap and then drive it away and he's literally won the lottery and kicked out most of his "betters"

For this same reason, no one is safe in the world of computer programming. It is constant creativity, constant marketing, constant competition, constant "changing" or what is essentially "programming" by it's very nature and that's what I like about it.

In computer programming, you're not screwing yourself by learning and implementing more than you can chew. Neither are you screwing yourself by implementing and learning less so you can focus on other areas you prefer. In computer programming, at the very core, you are only screwed by everything that made you a computer programmer.

If you believe a computer programmer is defined by his paycheck, then management often times screws you.

If you believe a computer programmer is defined by the quality of the product you make, then the marketer and freeware computer programmers screws you by riding on your back to make a better quality program.

If you believe a computer programmer is defined by dedication, then you are the one who often screws yourself by not being dedicated to programming and limiting yourself only to the "coding".

Quote
If you could change one thing about computer programmers what would it be?

Perception. Right now there's too many pseudo-experts roaming around and gaining influence as well as people even experts setting up a spikier barrier of learning because that's what most of modern society involves in but it's basically screwing them up also.

By being more of an isolationist, computer programmers rather than use their new found mindsets to "program" their environment become slaves to their society.

I'm not saying all computer programmers are creating shells. Certainly, even if this stereotype holds enough quantity to be true, that's not the problem.

The problem is enough appreciation of the value of programming. That, I feel is what many computer programmers sell themselves short and I can't blame them. Life can be rough and modern society can't just be "sci-fi"-ed into mind control chips that follow you around.

But see...that's the thing! If you're a budding programmer and you don't know a Programming Language well enough, life is only as comfortable as when you limit yourself to anything your capabilities can do. A script kiddie is not going to enjoy playing with his hacked Iphone if he's suddenly tasked with trying to hack a super secure high tech computer that in 10 seconds would launch a nuclear device straight to his home! Why should programmers allow their environment to define how "programmers" should act and treat the world and give up on "programming" the world?

I'm not saying they should gather all the spec sheets on that girl they've been stalking. I'm saying look what's in front of your mind! "Program it!" Write well written codes. Write great guis by actually listening to your lesser brethrens and not just hide or convince them "not to think" like Apple does. I'm also not saying show your end-users everything! Even Britney Spears couldn't pull that off!

I just want perception to be considered. If the program works well enough. Program the site! Site is working enough. Program the availability and clarity of the manual! Use technology that's easier on the eyes for casual users. Manual is good enough? Program the forums, the blogs, the marketing, the feedback form, your friendliness...No, don't change yourself or be a slave to your users. Just follow the mindset of programming: change minds, not switches.

Obviously this isn't just limited to programmers and that's part of the difficulty because society is the new invisible falling off a gravity scenario after the parachute was invented but it's such a crucial need and computer programmers are such an important facet to the growth of the world that I feel it's the one thing that they not only should change but they can actually change without needing a genie fulfilling my wish and just require having 1 or 2 computer programmers start considering perception today or getting motivated again to further improve perception just a wee bit more that Margaret Mead's quote (Never doubt that a small group of committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that has.) starts to work a wee bit better.

Quote
In your opinion, what is the most important thing that Computer Programmers have given the world?

Progress
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 12:27:38 AM by Paul Keith » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2009, 12:57:32 AM »

I think Paul captured some of the revolutionary excitement that one can feel when one starts getting good at programming.

Let me try to sum up what I think is at the core of my love of programming and I think is one of the things that is very very hard to find in any other field, and makes programming almost uniquely incredible.  And it's also perhaps what is most overlooked when viewing programming as an art form..

The most magical thing about programming, in my view, is the ability to create something that surprises you.

In any art form, I think a key part of the enjoyment that an artist gets from working, is creating something, pulling something out of oneself that surprises the artist.  Sometimes you hear writers talk about getting in the zone of writing fiction and they are writing dialogue because they can't wait to hear what the character will say.

In programming, you are always sort of walking the line between knowing what the program will do at each step, but still being surprised at how the entire thing works as a complete system -- and seeing how this creation can be used to do larger things.

I think that's part of why so many computer programmer's get their start writing games as a hobby -- think of how wonderful it is to be able to create something -- to write a program -- to know every single rule -- but then still not know how to evade the monster or conquer the last level in the dungeon, or land your ship on the planet surface, because of all the emergent interactions of all the different pieces.

It is a lot like playing god -- being able to create whatever you can think of -- but still have it be autonomous enough to surprise and delight you.
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« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2009, 01:24:39 AM »

I'm very aware that computers are but scrapes of metal and silicon, and ultimately, that's what they are. They are obsoleted after a few years, and that hot 'smart' machine you're typing on now, will be scrap metal in the relatively near future.

I'm also very aware that ultimately none of it matters. People were around when they didn't have anything other than sticks and rocks, and are still around now that those sticks and rock are software and hardware.

I don't feel any of the code I write changes the world. In fact, quite the opposite. A lot of what us techies do is self-sustaining. A lot of what we do on computers is FOR computers, and only immediately relevant to computers.

I'm not saying they are completely useless, and that they aren't used for important things. But when we really face reality, 90% (if not more) of what we do on a computer is only relevant to the limited world of computing itself.

Yet despite all that, writing code and playing with commandline's etc, is 'home'. It's what I grew up with and it's simply how my mind knows to function and communicate.
I wrote my first lines of code when I was only 7 years old or so. I don't see it as a job or a hobby, it's a language, and a way of thinking.
I often notice that while I'm typing up code I don't even think about what I'm putting down, it just flows. Just like speech.
When I'm coding or doing other geeky stuff, I just feel like I'm in a natural environment. When I'm outside talking to people, I feel uncomfortable and like I don't belong. It's really as simple as that, I think. While coding can definitively be fun, questions such as "what do you think is most fun about being a developer", are missing the point. I think it's simply just a natural state of being for some people. smiley
Maybe over the years my brain has just rewired itself as a computer interface. cheesy


« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 03:53:51 AM by Gothi[c] » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2009, 02:26:05 AM »

Have you folks seen the following Grady Booch lecture?

http://yuiblog.com/blog/2007/05/28/video-booch/

He seems to have a rather different opinion about how much computers (and/or software?) matter -- or that is the impression I got from parts of his talk...
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« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2009, 02:40:34 AM »

I'm very aware that computers are but scrapes of metal and silicon, and ultimately, that's what they are. They are obsoleted after a few years, and that hot 'smart' machine you're typing on now, will be scrap metal in the relatively near future.

I'm also very aware that ultimately not of it matters. People were around when they didn't have anything other than sticks and rocks, and are still around now that those sticks and rock are software and hardware.

I don't feel any of the code I write changes the world. In fact, quite the opposite. A lot of what us techies do is self-sustaining. A lot of what we do on computers is FOR computers, and only immediately relevant to computers.

I'm not saying they are completely useless, and that they aren't used for important things. But when we really face reality, 90% (if not more) of what we do on a computer is only relevant to the limited world of computing itself.

Yet despite all that, writing code and playing with commandline's etc, is 'home'. It's what I grew up with and it's simply how my mind knows to function and communicate.
I wrote my first lines of code when I was only 7 years old or so. I don't see it as a job or a hobby, it's a language, and a way of thinking.
I often notice that while I'm typing up code I don't even think about what I'm putting down, it just flows. Just like speech.
When I'm coding or doing other geeky stuff, I just feel like I'm in a natural environment. When I'm outside talking to people, I feel uncomfortable and like I don't belong. It's really as simple as that, I think. While coding can definitively be fun, questions such as "what do you think is most fun about being a developer", are missing the point. I think it's simply just a natural state of being for some people. smiley
Maybe over the years my brain has just rewired itself as a computer interface. cheesy




Lol, I can see why your username is Gothi[c].  Grin (No offense intended)
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« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2009, 03:22:53 AM »

2Paul Keith
You stole a lot from my thoughts Wink Good post, keep it going!

One more thing worth to mention is that being a programmer sometimes allows you to gain more knowledge than particular beings.

Ex. When you are writing an application with purpose of being used by businessmen you have to be not only a coder but businessman too. You have to know what they know and understand a little bit of psychology: how are they thinking or behave. This knowledge might be focused on one area only but you have to be better in it than the user.

In the other hand, all programmers I met had one other thing in common: very extended knowledge about many (I should shout MANY) things. They are good in IT, of course, but also in: grammar and orthography (Polish ones), physics or math. They know good books, movies or philosophy. And, maybe because of analytical way of thinking, they were mostly unbelievers.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 03:27:24 AM by fenixproductions » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2009, 04:11:09 AM »

Quote
He seems to have a rather different opinion about how much computers (and/or software?) matter -- or that is the impression I got from parts of his talk...

It's an interesting talk but I'm not convinced as to how much it matters. But then there's different levels of 'mattering' smiley 'mattering' is a relative concept like time. cheesy I think it doesn't matter in the big picture ; we'll be around, software or not. ( Actually, he mentions some really scary stuff software has done from surveillance to making more destructive bombs, if anything it'll kill us  tongue )

That said, there is no doubt that a lot of our modern lives touch software in some way or another, and that this will be increasingly so, and that a lot of how we do things has changed because of it.
Perhaps the real core of the matter is that, like he says, software development is hard and takes so much effort (the number of 100 million lines of code was dropped, somewhere in that talk), that, when you're actually writing software, only a very very tiny percentage of that will ultimately only matter in the grand total.
What I meant with writing software for software, or using computers for computers, is stuff like, what ide or text editor am i most productive with, having to install anti-virus software, what window manager to use, what os to use, etc...
So, each line of code you write matters pretty much nothing on it's own. It's likely that each piece of software you write doesn't either, unless you're working for some fancy research team or company. Most of the time you are fiddling with stuff that deals with how to make your computer experience in itself better, etc... 

The result is using a computer not to accomplish anything, but simply for the sake of using a computer, and accomplishing stuff is a side effect that kind of happens when you put everything everyone does everywhere together.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 04:13:21 AM by Gothi[c] » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2009, 08:07:06 AM »

accomplishing stuff is a side effect that kind of happens when you put everything everyone does everywhere together.

 Thmbsup
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« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2009, 10:26:21 AM »

First off, WOW...

These are amazingly powerful thoughts that you guys have put into words... I read those and was happy to be who I am; proud of what i've done and proud of the way I look at life.

@all of you - may I quote you in my speech for my college course?

Thank you for spending the time to have expressed your views of life and opinions... It really helps to see what kind of mindset I need to have so that I can become what is commonly known as an "expert programmer" in my later days... Alot of the times, when I think of some of the people at DC.com, I can only hope to be as organized, as devoted, and as productive as you guys are... I mean I love seeing what you guys do: what websites you use, what things you do to stay organized, what sorts of programming you consider and many other things... These things do NOT shape me, but rather point me in the right direction of where I need to be to truly excel at what I love doing: creating software. I can honestly say that because of DonationCoder, I've become a better programmer...

I have just recently read a quote that caught my attention and really made me think about things...

Here is the quote: "If I had more time, I'd have written you a shorter letter." - T.S. Elliot

Anyways, thanks for the thoughts!!
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« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2009, 10:43:51 AM »

Some folks have observed that tests of software people show that many of us have tendencies toward autism. Over-generalizing significantly, such people are characterized by difficulty in understanding the reactions of other people, and how to interact with them.

I think this makes a lot of sense. I think that we software developers find our interactions with the computer rewarding because the computer behaves very deterministically. Given a particular input, the computer will always react the same way; and if you want a certain output from the computer, it's possible to methodically calculate the right algorithm to get it. We're not burdened by the subtle, hard-to-comprehend, and sometimes random, reactions that we get when interacting with humans.
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« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2009, 05:24:37 AM »

Sorry if this is too late but on my part, sure quote away. You'll notice that the bulk of my posts are based elsewhere also.

Quote from: Gothi[c
]The result is using a computer not to accomplish anything, but simply for the sake of using a computer, and accomplishing stuff is a side effect that kind of happens when you put everything everyone does everywhere together.

I'd just like to start by saying I agree with the core of your statement Gothi[c]. I just feel like I have to comment on these two parts I'm quoting. The above because I think you're selling your realization short by limiting the effect to just computers and not life in general and the below because I disagree on the little bit about a very very tiny percentage of what we do matter in the grand scheme of things.

My case against that would be to point out that most well developed theories of progress and innovation all require very very tiny percentage of changes and they in fact point more towards the insignificance of a major event.

Two particular theories that jump at me are:

In Chaos Theory, it is the biggest event that has least significance and the culmination of all tiny events that innovate the world. In fact, the bigger the event the more it gets dispersed into tiny events and the more it is useless beyond being a bookmark for history books to refer to.

In a paradigm shift, the biggest event is pre-cluded by the combination of small events that the big event is the most detrimental to progress because it revisionizes a society's perception that it is in fact one major character or event that mattered and thus influencing a culture of over-simplistic people prone to throwing away their progress rather than understanding it.

In programming this would be akin to saying Google was a major event when in fact, little bits of coding was what got a certain character to influence another character to influence another character which resulted in Google. By saying Google is the major influencer and the programmers at home didn't do anything, one is likened to saying the popularity of a movie is credited to the actor and not the culmination of people watching it, the actor, the director, the set designer...

As you can see, it, alone isn't harmful but what if a society is in need of relevation and specifics? They are then deprived of progress. Why? Because it was due to one person not questioning a priest or one priest not questioning a Church or one Church not questioning the teachings of God. In programming, if one man didn't program a script by which a programming language would be born, would the next major programmer have created a program based on that programming language? or would the next major programmer have to create that programming language first?

If there was no Unix, would there have been a Linux?

If there was no complicated Yahoo search page, would there have been a niche for Google to create a simple search page?

If there was no mouser, would we have tech forum on the level of a DonationCoder despite the fact that it is very basic for a programmer to set up a forum?

The very very tiny things are all that matters. I know this could be just a difference of value and perception between us but I just couldn't live with not pointing out that we are still molecules and atoms and no amount of work we do changes our composition to the point that our little insignificants matter less than our big significants. The small bug always sour the big feature to a person affected by that small bug.

Quote
Perhaps the real core of the matter is that, like he says, software development is hard and takes so much effort (the number of 100 million lines of code was dropped, somewhere in that talk), that, when you're actually writing software, only a very very tiny percentage of that will ultimately only matter in the grand total.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 05:30:43 AM by Paul Keith » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2009, 06:08:52 AM »

All valid points Paul smiley
(ps, yes quote away!)

The famous actors example is a very nice comparison, I think. In the past actors never got that famous. It was usually the writer of a play that got all the credit, and the actors were but mere pawns.

Perhaps perception in general, is almost always incorrect/inaccurate/broken/wrong. smiley
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« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2009, 06:23:10 AM »

Glad we agree Gothi[c].  Grin (I was worried I might have come off as antagonistic!)
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