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Article: Open source thrives in downturn
wasker:
The details are available. Unfortunately, the cited survey was conducted by Gartner Group, so it will cost you some serious money to read them.
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That is exactly why getting one number (85%) and publishing an article about the pervasiveness of (F)OSS is a pure sensationalism. Without actually answering the questions like those I posted above the number alone doesn't make any sense.
Thanks for Netcraft stats, but it has nothing to do with this survey. -wasker (December 24, 2008, 06:18 PM)
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Out of curiosity, how would you know, unless you have a spare $1295 lying around? (see above)-40hz (December 24, 2008, 11:33 PM)
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Because if you count in Internet in whole and web infrastructure in particular, your 85% would be 100%.
Still, I have to disagree. Web is at the heart of much of what is considered "enterprise." And Apache deployment is steadily growing.-40hz (December 24, 2008, 11:33 PM)
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Oh yeah? Are we looking at the same chart? Starting from 2006 Apache's share goes down and Microsoft's up...
(Although, it's funny that Microsoft's stacks is in comparable numbers with FOSS' -- check the numbers like 5 or 10 years ago).
-wasker (December 24, 2008, 06:18 PM)
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I'm not sure what you're saying here...but OK. ;D
-40hz (December 24, 2008, 11:33 PM)
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See above.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not a cheerleader for open source. FOSS will ultimately stand or sink on its technical and economic merits - not its philosophy or good intentions. But I hardly think it's unreasonable to believe that just about every company will be using some open source app in the near future. I can't think of a single company or client that I'm dealing with that hasn't deployed at least one piece of FOSS/OSS software in the last two years. I find that interesting, since four years ago, only one of them had.
-40hz (December 24, 2008, 11:33 PM)
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Actually you do sound like a cheerleader. ;) See, I'm not debating the fact that companies use (F)OSS, I'm debating the fact that 85% number doesn't make sense without any supplemental information that may make this number read a little bit different, that you might think.
40hz:
Don't get me wrong. I'm not a cheerleader for open source. FOSS will ultimately stand or sink on its technical and economic merits - not its philosophy or good intentions. But I hardly think it's unreasonable to believe that just about every company will be using some open source app in the near future. I can't think of a single company or client that I'm dealing with that hasn't deployed at least one piece of FOSS/OSS software in the last two years. I find that interesting, since four years ago, only one of them had.
-40hz (December 24, 2008, 11:33 PM)
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Actually you do sound like a cheerleader. ;) See, I'm not debating the fact that companies use (F)OSS, I'm debating the fact that 85% number doesn't make sense without any supplemental information that may make this number read a little bit different, that you might think.
-wasker (December 25, 2008, 12:21 AM)
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Again, I'm not exactly sure about what you're getting at. Can you give me an example of how it might "read a little bit different, than you might think"?
I'm reading the headline as saying nothing more than this:
Based on a survey, 17 out of 20 companies that responded stated that they are currently using open source software; and furthermore, those respondents who aren't currently using open source software have stated that they are planning to do so in the upcoming year.
I don't see anything that begs for belief there. Nor do I see much reason to be overly skeptical of Gartner's survey. Although Gartner's trend predictions have sometimes proven wrong, they are not in the habit of making up numbers, or fudging survey results.
When companies are looking to cut costs, they explore alternatives. And when you have a good number of mature, field proven enterprise applications and infrastructure tools that are available without license fees or restrictions, you can bet that any senior IT manager who wants to keep his/her job is staying on top of what alternatives are available. Even if for no other reason than to develop a rationale for not using them.
And while FOSS apps may not be completely free (since support costs are unavoidable regardless of which software gets deployed) the lack of that upfront cost still makes them worth serious consideration. Especially when the code quality of major FOSS apps is as least as good as their commercial counterparts
Actually you do sound like a cheerleader. ;)
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Hmm...that comment sounds a bit little personal, but ok... ;D
Either way, I don't understand how citing my experience with my own clients should make me sound like a cheerleader. My point in sharing it was that I myself am seeing this very same trend in the companies I work with. And since my primary business is supporting Microsoft products, the fact that FOSS/OSS is making such inroads is actually "just one more thing" I have to deal with rather than a source of excitement.
Am I a cheerleader? Nope. Not at all. Just a realist attempting to deal with a changing business environment and evolving customer demands. But maybe that's just how it looks from where I sit.
So... what trends regarding open source are you seeing with your clients?
8)
wasker:
I'm reading the headline as saying nothing more than this:
Based on a survey, 17 out of 20 companies that responded stated that they are currently using open source software; and furthermore, those respondents who aren't currently using open source software have stated that they are planning to do so in the upcoming year.
I don't see anything that begs for belief there. Nor do I see much reason to be overly skeptical of Gartner's survey. Although Gartner's trend predictions have sometimes proven wrong, they are not in the habit of making up numbers, or fudging survey results.
Again, I'm not exactly sure about what you're getting at. Can you give me an example of how it might "read a little bit different, than you might think"?
-40hz (December 25, 2008, 12:12 PM)
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Okay, let's say I'm a big corp who decided to deploy KeePass all over the place: is it a big win for OSS community, considering that big corp is still using Exchange, Outlook, SharePoint and IIS for their day-to-day business?
Or, my company went 100% FOSS: Linux desktop, whatever else FOSS software you can think of. Is it a huge gain for FOSS community, given that my company is a mom and pop's shop around the corner?
Can you see my point now?
So... what trends regarding open source are you seeing with your clients?
-40hz (December 25, 2008, 12:12 PM)
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They don't use it. I kid you not. When my company is in discussion of new project for a huge corp client, they explicitly say they don't want to use OSS, because they want to have someone behind the software.
40hz:
Okay, let's say I'm a big corp who decided to deploy KeePass all over the place: is it a big win for OSS community
-wasker (December 25, 2008, 01:06 PM)
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I think you're begging the question here by deliberately selecting a minor app like Keypass as your example. We were talking about enterprise apps rather than desktop weren't we?
Why not say something Nagios? Or FreeBSD server? Or Squid?
I'm also not certain what you mean by a "big win" for the OSS community. They're not competing in the Microsoft sense of the word. They're just offering an alternative to the "received wisdom" that Microsoft is the only viable IT solution out there. FOSS believes there's room for alternative products in the marketplace. Microsoft does not.
considering that big corp is still using Exchange, Outlook, SharePoint and IIS for their day-to-day business
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A "win" for Microsoft no doubt, but it doesn't automatically follow that Microsoft's win is also a win for Big Corp. Unless, of course, you work for Microsoft.
BTW: I'm curious, do you?
Or, my company went 100% FOSS: Linux desktop, whatever else FOSS software you can think of. Is it a huge gain for FOSS community, given that my company is a mom and pop's shop around the corner?
-wasker (December 25, 2008, 01:06 PM)
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Yes, it is.
Again, it's about awareness and alternatives, as much as it is about technology and numbers. FOSS believes there should always be alternatives. And that people should be aware that they have choice in the matter. Apparently FOSS doesn't share the same attitude towards "Mom & Pop" businesses that some do.
And it's also instructive to remember that many large and successful corporations (Microsoft included) started out as very small businesses.
They don't use it. I kid you not. When my company is in discussion of new project for a huge corp client, they explicitly say they don't want to use OSS, because they want to have someone behind the software.
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Odd. My company may not be in the same league as yours, but here in southwestern CT and NYC, where we do work with some very major Fortune 100 corps, I'm hearing - and above all seeing just the opposite.
Guess it all depends on where you are.
And FWIW, there is somebody behind most of the enterprise FOSS apps. And that remains true despite the disinformation that gets constantly marketed to corporate IT departments. To a certain extent, FOSS even gives a company more control by making its source available. The company can even put its own IT behind it, if they so choose, and make the app completely their own.
Then there's one other dirty little truth to consider: Usually, when a corporate employee talks about having someone "behind" something, what they're usually looking for is "plausible deniability" coupled with a convenient "fall guy."
Consider: If your IIs server gets hosed, you can always blame $%#@@# Microsoft, since everybody knows all about their patches and problems. But if your corporate Apache-based server crashes...well, you should have known better than to have used a piece of "free software."
Much like back in the days of IBM's mainframe empire, nowadays "Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft." Once again, it's a case of old wine in new bottles.
Can you see my point now?
-wasker (December 25, 2008, 01:06 PM)
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Yes I do. I just don't think it's correct, nor do I agree with it. :)
wasker:
I think you're begging the question here by deliberately selecting a minor app like Keypass as your example. We were talking about enterprise apps rather than desktop weren't we?
-40hz (December 25, 2008, 02:21 PM)
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Finally you got it! Now you have a number (85%) and NO additional information and you're so happy to read about 85% completely neglecting the fact that you don't know a thing about what this number consists of.
And it's also instructive to remember that many large and successful corporations (Microsoft included) started out as very small businesses.
-40hz (December 25, 2008, 02:21 PM)
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Sorry to rain on your parade, but 99% of Mom and Pop's businesses will either stay as Mom and Pop's businesses or go out of business altogether.
PS.
No, I'm not working for Microsoft.
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