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Author Topic: NANY 2009 Intro  (Read 61257 times)
tinjaw
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I'm so glad breakbeat techno isn't an illegal drug

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« Reply #100 on: December 16, 2008, 07:14:56 AM »

I'm out.  Sad

Life has overtaken me. I am just too busy. I didn't get an early start like I hoped and I leave for Czech this Saturday. Sorry folks. My ToDo list is just to full right now. I'll see you folks again after I return from vacation.

Happy Holidays.
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Perry Mowbray
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« Reply #101 on: December 16, 2008, 07:22:52 AM »

That's a pity tinjaw: home for holidays? All the best  Thmbsup
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tinjaw
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I'm so glad breakbeat techno isn't an illegal drug

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« Reply #102 on: December 16, 2008, 09:51:46 AM »

home for holidays?

Nope. But in a good way.  Wink I will be visiting with my girlfriend's family and friends in the Czech Republic.

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parttimecoder
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Donation code is cool!

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« Reply #103 on: December 16, 2008, 02:03:49 PM »

Hi

I have a small program that would be ready (beta) for NANY 2009. I will call it keydb. With this standalone utility you can securely create, store and retrieve web login user names and passwords and any notes you might have. It uses an encrypted database for securing all data and an ini file to store configuration info, making it portable.

No helpfile yet ! should be intuitive enough to use without one. The goal was to make it as simple and as practical to use as possible. 

keydb is beta so testers are needed.  Please leave constructive feedback. Ideas for features, bugs, likes/dislikes or any other comments you might have.  smiley

Thanks !




 
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 10:32:01 PM by parttimecoder » Logged
chaiguy1337
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« Reply #104 on: December 17, 2008, 11:39:11 AM »

I'm new here, but would like to apply. I'm just about to release a new app and I think I can wait until Jan 1 to make it official. Have a couple questions though.

Does it qualify as donationware if the donation price is fixed (at $10-15), so long as there aren't any limitations in the unregistered copy?

Does a "please donate/register" reminder void the donationware status?

Is it too late to register? tongue

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mouser
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« Reply #105 on: December 17, 2008, 11:53:06 AM »

Quote
Does it qualify as donationware if the donation price is fixed (at $10-15), so long as there aren't any limitations in the unregistered copy?
Does a "please donate/register" reminder void the donationware status?

great questions! we've actually periodically debated these issues on the forum.. i should try to find the old threads since it's been a while since we talked about the issues.

i don't think there is one right answer, but i'll give my personal opinions:

Quote
Does it qualify as donationware if the donation price is fixed (at $10-15), so long as there aren't any limitations in the unregistered copy?

YES. i believe that is still donationware in my view.  if paying is truly optional then yes.  i still think it's better if user can choose how much to pay -- i think that's an important concept, but i still think this qualifies.  a "recommended" donation might be an ideal compromise.


Quote
Does a "please donate/register" reminder void the donationware status?

DEPENDS.  This is where people get religious!  Some people claim that even a single one time tiny itty bitty reminder/request/notice/fineprint in statusbar of program change a program from being freeware into being shareware (which they inevitably refuse to use!)

In my view, it's a bit of a gray area.  The bigger programs on donationcoder for example i consider donationware, but they in fact will show you a reminder after an initial period and require you to visit the web page to get a free license key to use the program.

Personally i believe it's s matter of reasonableness.  If you pop up a big message every time the person uses the program saying they should pay that has to be clicked closed, then for me personally, that is going to bother me enough for me to say that its "nagware" and isn't really free.. The question is when does a program nag so much that it crosses the line from freeware to nagware.  That's something everyone has to decide for themselves.
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chaiguy1337
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« Reply #106 on: December 17, 2008, 12:42:58 PM »

Personally i believe it's s matter of reasonableness.  If you pop up a big message every time the person uses the program saying they should pay that has to be clicked closed, then for me personally, that is going to bother me enough for me to say that its "nagware" and isn't really free.. The question is when does a program nag so much that it crosses the line from freeware to nagware.  That's something everyone has to decide for themselves.

That is a fair take on things. If we break it down, for instance, having a "please donate" button on the software could certainly not void its status, since users must have some obvious way to donate. I agree that imposing some dialog, especially one with a countdown would certain constitute nagware.

To be completely honest I haven't decided on a system yet, so let me ask you this. First and foremost I am writing this software to make a bit of money, because this is my full-time job and I need to support myself (i.e. it's not on the side). So in your opinion, can releasing something as donationware actually generate more funds than say a traditional pay-to-unlock model? Or is it merely kindness on the part of the developer because they can afford to? (I'd love to be generous, but simply cannot afford to cut profits at this point). Arguably, the publicity and word of mouth associated with free/donation software could outweigh forcing users to pay.

Now that said, here's a philosophical question for you: surely a "lite" version of a program that is completely free, but missing maybe some advanced features of a "pro" version, so long as it doesn't nag, would be considered free/donationware, correct? If so, does bundling two versions into the same installed product (in other words, upgrading to unlock certain features) also count as free/donationware, again so long as there is not any annoying nagging to upgrade? I ask this mainly because from a design standpoint it is much simpler to create a single product rather than two versions, one free and one pro.

My intention is not to start a debate--we can open up a new thread to discuss this if people want. I simply want to know where my options stand to release my product and still qualify for the competition. In all honesty I'm mostly interested in the publicity, not any prizes that may be won (if there even are any).

Thanks for the info and opinions.
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mouser
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« Reply #107 on: December 17, 2008, 01:01:59 PM »

more great questions.

one i can answer pretty definitively, and depressingly Sad :
Quote
So in your opinion, can releasing something as donationware actually generate more funds than say a traditional pay-to-unlock model?
i'm sorry to say that my experience is that you will never make close to as much in donations as you would selling your software.  that is the unfortunate conclusion i have come to after years involvement in donationcoder, which i think is probably one of the most "successful" (in terms of donations and users) donation-based software sites that there is.

however, this only takes into consideration financial gain -- for many of us there are other issues besides financial gain that outweigh the differences (see my old article here).



Keep in mind that some people assume incorrectly that this site would be hostile to traditional shareware and commercial software but we are not, so no one will begrudge you trying to make money on your software.  Though of course it won't come as a surprise that most of us here tend to be more interested in and curious about software that is free/donationware.



Quote
Now that said, here's a philosophical question for you: surely a "lite" version of a program that is completely free, but missing maybe some advanced features of a "pro" version, so long as it doesn't nag, would be considered free/donationware, correct? If so, does bundling two versions into the same installed product (in other words, upgrading to unlock certain features) also count as free/donationware, again so long as there is not any annoying nagging to upgrade? I ask this mainly because from a design standpoint it is much simpler to create a single product rather than two versions, one free and one pro.

another really good question -- framed very logically.
again you will find differences in opinion here.  some people will view the lite version as primarily a marketing strategy and say it's no different than giving someone a feature-limited demo.  it's really that gray line thing again, and it's mostly going to come down to what features you disable.

Obviously if you disable key features like the ability to save documents, then you are really talking about not a free version but a non-time-limited demo which people will have to upgrade to make any good use of the program.

On the other hand if the program is useful to large numbers of people without ever paying for pro features, and you aren't frequently nagging them to upgrade, then i think you can argue that you are talking about a free lite version and a pro pay version, which seems reasonable to me.  You just have to be careful how you "advertise" it on your web page and in other places, to make sure people know what they are getting, etc.



Another model you haven't mentioned yet, which i find particularly attractive, and seems to be gaining in some popularity recently, is the "Free for Personal Use" model -- whereby there is really only one version of the program, which is free and does not nag the user or have any limits, but for which the license is allowed only for personal use (or as we do it here on donationcoder, free for personal and small/home office business type use).  Commercial users are expected to pay for a license to use the software.

Whether you can make money with a "free for personal use" type license will depend very much on the kind of program, and i suspect on the kind of marketing you do.  Some companies seem to do exceedingly well with such a model, but they tend to be pretty aggressive in marketing/selling their software to businesses.  they get the benefit of free press from being a free program, and a good user base, and then they actively try to market the program to businesses.  there are quite a few security programs that work on this model.
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chaiguy1337
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« Reply #108 on: December 17, 2008, 01:45:46 PM »

Thanks, this is all very helpful.

It's too bad that donationware doesn't generate as much profit as the traditional models. I certainly don't dispute that there are other advantages to releasing software as donationware, some of which I have certainly considered. But as I mentioned money is top priority at this particular point in the game for me.

I noticed the following definition on that link: "A more useful definition for Donationware might be a program where the author requires a donation of some sort for full access to the program." It's good to know that requiring a donation still constitutes donationware, as I have considered that option too.

While a "free for personal use" model probably won't fit well for my current project, as I expect its largest audience to be home users, I'm glad you mentioned that because it may actually turn out to be a good model for my next project, which would be useful to both home and business users/organizations.

Anyhow, the current state of my program (that I'd like to submit) is that it's basically completely free in the sense that there are no limitations at all, even though it can be purchased an "unlocked" for $15, unlocking doesn't currently do anything except hide the "buy" button and stick their name on it as a licensed user. I was originally thinking of having a nag window when the program was quit, but if this would disqualify it, I can certainly remove that.

One final quick question--does the software that is submitted have to be free for the life of the product (including all future versions?) or would it be ok to submit a completely free VERSION of the program, for the competition, and then maybe introduce a more traditional model in future versions?

Thanks again and sorry to flood the post with all these questions.

Cheers
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mouser
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« Reply #109 on: December 17, 2008, 01:55:57 PM »

Quote
I noticed the following definition on that link: "A more useful definition for Donationware might be a program where the author requires a donation of some sort for full access to the program." It's good to know that requiring a donation still constitutes donationware, as I have considered that option too.

it needs to be pointed out that i was *suggesting* that this would be a useful definition -- but pointing out that it is simply a battle over word meanings that has already been lost.  there is no accepted/extant term for describing a program that requires a donation but the user can choose the amount.   if you use the term "donationware" to describe such a program you might confuse people.  i still think it's a useful concept worth experimenting with.  just don't know what it would be called.

---

Quote
One final quick question--does the software that is submitted have to be free for the life of the product (including all future versions?) or would it be ok to submit a completely free VERSION of the program, for the competition, and then maybe introduce a more traditional model in future versions?

i think this gets back to the intent issue underlying a lot of your questions.  if the intent is to release a teaser version that will get attention but that won't really be useful to anyone, just to drive them to your real pay version, then people might feel resentful.  in such a case you'd be better off posting about your program on our forum in a normal way and inviting people to try your program with the full knowledge that it is meant to be a commercial product.

the idea of nany is to encourage people to make new free programs -- if you can come up with a lite version of your new program, which you think stands on its own as a semi-useful program, then go for it, in the spirit of the contest -- and be happy if people are interested in it for it's own sake without feeling like you have to convert them to the paying version.  note that i say "semi-useful" because plenty of the nany programs are more like exercises for programmers than polished programs meant to be super useful.  again i think the bottom line comes down to how you approach the thing -- nany is not meant to be a showcase of commercial software, it's meant to be a fun event for coders to release something free for everyone, for fun.  Doesnt mean we don't want to hear about your program on the forum -- but it means you have to think about whether what you are doing fits in with this particular event.
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chaiguy1337
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« Reply #110 on: December 17, 2008, 02:01:14 PM »

Thanks for clearing that up; I think I will sit-out the competition since really my program is of "commercial intent", and any attempts to disguise that would indeed probably be misleading--don't want to be a wolf in sheep's clothing. However, I like the site and will read more about it, and maybe will have something to submit next time. smiley

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justice
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Solve issues simply.

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« Reply #111 on: December 17, 2008, 05:58:50 PM »

Have to say great discussion.
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seedling
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« Reply #112 on: December 19, 2008, 11:08:49 PM »

I have submitted a rather unusual app that takes a different approach in steganography.  I (with the help of friends and Oleh Yuschuk's disassembly engine smiley ) developed this application way back in 2003-2004. The app is called PESplash.  It embeds text into windows exe files using interchangeable assembly opcodes.

With this app you can create your own 'keys' (ops.dat file) that will be able to embed/read hidden text via a binary stream based on the interchangeable codes you have in your ops.dat file.  So, it embeds this data into the CODE section of your executable file and will run just as originally compiled without error and yet contains hidden data.  Now, be warned, if you decide on interchangeable opcodes and you are wrong, then your application will most likely not run correctly. the default ops.dat file contains most zero flag, interchangeable codes that should not be a problem to swap (but it's not perfect).

So to summarize, it embeds text into your executable files.  This could be used in nefarious ways (and is the reason i never released it to the public).  Use with restraint, but it's a pretty cool way of tracking who is downloading your files (if released in the wild), send messages, etc.

Anyway, that's my submission, enjoy. smiley

Also, please note that this is free and without protection, however, if you plan on using this in a corporate/commercial product, then you must contact me for proper compensation.

One last thing, this will not work on executable files that have been packed (compressed), doing so will almost certainly result in an unusable file.
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Blaster
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« Reply #113 on: December 23, 2008, 08:15:53 AM »

Hi to all!

I have to say I just love N.A.N.Y.!!!!
Unfortunatelly, I missed it last year...

I hope I'll finish and submit my app on time this year!

If I do - I'm in too!!!!  Thmbsup
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Perry Mowbray
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« Reply #114 on: December 23, 2008, 08:21:10 PM »

Hi Blaster:

I'll take that as your pledge then  Wink
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« Reply #115 on: December 30, 2008, 01:12:05 PM »

Hi all,
I have to cancel my participation this year - I can not make it in time  thumb down - WPF is such a huge beast - sorry
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Codebyte
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« Reply #116 on: December 30, 2008, 11:09:44 PM »

I have been working on a few good apps... seems I wont be able to finish them on time. However, I will still try to get them done within the week. Happy New Years smiley
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Blaster
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« Reply #117 on: January 05, 2009, 04:05:14 AM »

shouldn't this N.A.N.Y. be called N.A.N.Y. 2008 rather then N.A.N.Y. 2009 ?

As I recall, first N.A.N.Y. was organized in December 2006 and was called N.A.N.Y. 2006
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mouser
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« Reply #118 on: January 05, 2009, 04:47:01 AM »

you are right about NANY 2006.. then we came to our senses and started naming it for the new year.
So there was no NANY 2007.. if someone tries to sell you a NANY 2007 mug it's a forgery!
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skwire
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Another Coding Snack request? Om nom nom...

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« Reply #119 on: January 05, 2009, 05:42:52 AM »

So there was no NANY 2007.. if someone tries to sell you a NANY 2007 mug it's a forgery!

:: From a back alley near you...(mouser, in disguise, to poor lil' Joey) ::
"Lies!  What mouser told you are lies!  There was a year 2007, wasn't there?  There must've been a NANY 2007, no?!  Look!  Right here I have a whole slew of 2007 NANY mugs for sale.  Name your price!"

Lil' Joey can't believe his good luck and does the banana dance  whilst handing mouser a hundred bucks .  "Oh yeah, it's my birthday , yeah, uh huh, I'm so cool, yeah."

:: Sirens in the background ::
 Cool Mouser, "Look, kid, I gotta go..."

:: Cops arrive... ::
"What's going on here?  We've had reports of forged NANY mugs for sale in the area."

Lil' Joey, "What?!?!   Oh, noes!!!   I've been mousered!!   How can I go on?!

"Precinct 16...uhhh...yeah...we're going to need a cleanup crew at the corner of Doenayshun and Kohdurr streets.  Mouser has struck again..."


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Josh
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« Reply #120 on: January 05, 2009, 05:58:22 AM »

All I can say is ROFLCOPTER!
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Strength in Knowledge
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I will eat Cody someday.

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« Reply #121 on: January 05, 2009, 07:56:45 AM »

Lil' Joey, "What?!?!   Oh, noes!!!   I've been mousered!!   How can I go on?!

"Precinct 16...uhhh...yeah...we're going to need a cleanup crew at the corner of Doenayshun and Kohdurr streets.  Mouser has struck again..."



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wreckedcarzz
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Happy wolfie ^_^

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« Reply #122 on: January 12, 2009, 08:51:34 PM »

LMAO SCANNIE where did you find that picture LOL!!!
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New website! With a fancy domain name and everything! *gasp*
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