Home | Blog | Software | Reviews and Features | Forum | Help | Donate | About us
topbanner_forum
  *

avatar image

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
  • December 09, 2016, 09:37:36 AM
  • Proudly celebrating 10 years online.
  • Donate now to become a lifetime supporting member of the site and get a non-expiring license key for all of our programs.
  • donate

Last post Author Topic: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)  (Read 99862 times)

f0dder

  • Charter Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,029
  • [Well, THAT escalated quickly!]
    • View Profile
    • f0dder's place
    • Read more about this member.
    • Donate to Member
Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #250 on: April 29, 2009, 06:25:14 AM »
I've never seen an accounting app that needed much from the GPU, so I doubt that will be a concern.
Funny that something as simple (OS features used, not business logic) as an accounting application can be written so crappily that it doesn't work across the whole Win95 -> Win7 range :)
- carpe noctem

Stoic Joker

  • Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2008
  • **
  • Posts: 6,296
    • View Profile
    • www.StoicJoker.com
    • Donate to Member
Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #251 on: April 30, 2009, 12:44:13 PM »
I've never seen an accounting app that needed much from the GPU, so I doubt that will be a concern.
Funny that something as simple (OS features used, not business logic) as an accounting application can be written so crappily that it doesn't work across the whole Win95 -> Win7 range :)
True, I suspect it has much to do with tendancy towards rushing to vertical markets for big $$$ in the hopes that "X" will be the only kid on the block for that nitch. Company "X" invests with the lowest bidder that uses a RAD OOP rig and didn't laugh at the insainly tight deadline.

...and we the poor bastards in support/administration have to suffer because of it.

Josh

  • Charter Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Points: -5
  • Posts: 3,397
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #252 on: April 30, 2009, 12:48:56 PM »
Windows 7 RC has been released to MSDN and Technet today.

f0dder

  • Charter Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,029
  • [Well, THAT escalated quickly!]
    • View Profile
    • f0dder's place
    • Read more about this member.
    • Donate to Member
Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #253 on: May 05, 2009, 11:05:09 AM »
Windows 7 RC has been released to MSDN and Technet today.
See here for more information :)
- carpe noctem

Carol Haynes

  • Waffles for England (patent pending)
  • Global Moderator
  • Joined in 2005
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,986
    • View Profile
    • Dales Computer Services
    • Donate to Member
Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #254 on: May 06, 2009, 11:13:24 AM »
XP mode is dead as a dodo!

It requires Hyper-V enabled CPUs to run!

If businesses are reluctant to upgrade from XP how many of them are going to have Hyper-V enabled systems throughout the organisation???

None of my systems have Hyper-V enabled CPUs (a mixture of AMD Athlon64 single and dual chips, and Intel dual core) so I can't even test it.

The stupid thing is that VirtualPC worked fine (albeit as a crappy VM option) on all of my systems - now they are updating it to make it pointless for most people. What is even worse is that it isntalled without a squeak - it is only when you actually want to use the f****g thing that it tells you to b******r off.

What's the betting it is to do with security!!

So the answer is don't get excited about XP mode in Windows 7 it is likely to be a damp squib at best but more likely to be the ulitmate option to REALLY piss off business customers who thought MS might finally have take the hint over application compatibility.

Josh

  • Charter Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Points: -5
  • Posts: 3,397
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #255 on: May 06, 2009, 11:23:47 AM »
Where does it say Hyper-V is required? From what I am reading, it only requires hardware virtualization support on the system board. I can enable virtualization on my 4 year old dell PC quite easily. XP Mode seems to run fairly flawlessly here.

Quote from: Microsoft.com
Windows Virtual PC requires a CPU with the Intel™ Virtualization Technology or AMD-V® feature turned on. This feature must be enabled in the system BIOS. For details on how to enable, visit the Configure BIOS page or check with your computer manufacturer.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 11:27:50 AM by Josh »

Carol Haynes

  • Waffles for England (patent pending)
  • Global Moderator
  • Joined in 2005
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,986
    • View Profile
    • Dales Computer Services
    • Donate to Member
Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #256 on: May 06, 2009, 12:13:34 PM »
Go to the Virtual PC web page and it says Hyper-V is a rquirement.

http://www.microsoft...ual-pc/download.aspx

Quote
Windows Virtual PC requires a CPU with the Intel™ Virtualization Technology or AMD-V® feature turned on. This feature must be enabled in the system BIOS.

When you run XP Mode on my systems (all less than 3 years old - one less than a year old) it says Hyper-V support is not available. No BIOS options.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 12:19:10 PM by Carol Haynes »

Josh

  • Charter Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Points: -5
  • Posts: 3,397
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #257 on: May 06, 2009, 12:22:36 PM »
I see virtualization in my BIOS and it is enabled. Plus, I see no mention of the word HYPER on the virtual-pc pages

Quote
Before you download

Windows Virtual PC requires a CPU with the Intel™ Virtualization Technology or AMD-V® feature turned on. This feature must be enabled in the system BIOS. For details on how to enable, visit the Configure BIOS page or check with your computer manufacturer.

Learn MoreLearn how to configure your BIOS settings to enable hardware virtualization on your PC

Windows Virtual PC requires Windows 7 Release Candidate. MSDN subscribers and TechNet Plus subscribers can download it from the Microsoft TechNet Springboard site.

Learn MoreVisit the Microsoft TechNet Springboard site

Carol Haynes

  • Waffles for England (patent pending)
  • Global Moderator
  • Joined in 2005
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,986
    • View Profile
    • Dales Computer Services
    • Donate to Member
Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #258 on: May 06, 2009, 01:13:21 PM »
OK if you have those settings and it works on your machine I suppose that is OK for you. The main issue I see is that business still running Windows XP software and as a result are locked into using XP are unlikely to want to buy new computers so that they can run XP software in an XP Mode virtual PC - what do they gain apart from a large bill for new computers?

Hyper-V comes from the error message generated by XP mode when it refuses to run.

Eóin

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,401
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #259 on: May 06, 2009, 04:35:38 PM »
Hyper-V is MS's virtualization technology already here with Server 2008. But yes it does need the hardware virtualization support in the cpu and it is a pity that tech didn't appear sooner and be a bit more widespread. I only have one computer with it.

I guess the thing is, that with Windows 7, people upgrading their PCs hopefully won't still be wanting to run XP on them. A new PC = hardware virtualization support = XP mode for legacy apps. It was always unlikely people with older computers would upgrade the OS any way, most people get a full new PC. Now with that they won't have to worry about existing apps not working.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 05:03:39 PM by Eóin »

Lashiec

  • Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 2,374
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #260 on: May 06, 2009, 04:48:33 PM »
Note that not all Intel and AMD CPUs include virtualization extensions. Intel is the most troublesome case, as many of their current models have Intel-VT removed arbitrarily. They used to do that with the first Core 2 family, and, despite the confusion, they have not learned anything since then.

So much for the Wintel duo, first the "Vista Capable" lawsuit, now this... Intel likes to cause trouble for Microsoft.

Eóin

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,401
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #261 on: May 06, 2009, 04:50:25 PM »
A related blog entry on seeing if your chip has support. Haven't tested it myself.

Easy Way to Determine If CPU Supports Windows 7 Virtual PC (XP Mode).

40hz

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 11,768
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #262 on: May 06, 2009, 06:31:22 PM »
Ed Bott has posted a list of Intel processors identifying which do (and don't) support the new XP Mode.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=946

Interesting read.


Carol Haynes

  • Waffles for England (patent pending)
  • Global Moderator
  • Joined in 2005
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,986
    • View Profile
    • Dales Computer Services
    • Donate to Member
Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #263 on: May 06, 2009, 07:26:22 PM »
It was always unlikely people with older computers would upgrade the OS any way, most people get a full new PC. Now with that they won't have to worry about existing apps not working.

Not true - precisely the corporate and medium sized business market that MS are targeting with Win 7 XP mode are the people who have volume license agreements with MS so that they get the latest versions of software as a matter of course.

There were two reasons Vista failed in this market:

  • extra hardware demands
  • lack of backward compatibility for key apps

Many PCs (and even more laptops) are still supplied without CPU level virtualisation support and so many business who have purchased computers in the last year or two won't necessarily benefit from XP Mode. Older computers just forget it.

A lot of businesses run their computers into the ground - and almost no company is going to have an annual replacement of technology (unless you are actively involved in the development of technology - but those companies won't worry about XP Mode anyway).

The biggest potential problem for MS are the non-adoption of Windows 7 by business users and is precisely why they put XP mode in the code - it is not there for home users and is why it is restricted to the higher cost versions only which are aimed at the pro market. However, there is a bigger problem in my opinion - over-hyping XP Mode in Windows 7 and the fact you don't need to upgrade hardware beyond the Vista required level only to the majority of their target audience frustrated and disappointed.

If MS miss the boat with buisness and Windows 7 they will have a real problem. Businesses will simply stick with Windows XP and with two strikes they can't afford a third - and I suspect many businesses would even start contemlating moving to open source solutions because MS give the impression of being all marketing and no real delivery.

Another potential loss is market share in terms of volume licensing - why pay for a license for software assurance only to find you can't use it?

nosh

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,426
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #264 on: May 06, 2009, 10:18:32 PM »
I wonder if Acronis' "convert backup to virtual disk" functionality is already compatible with the new VM. If would be awesome if we could just shift the whole install to a VM on Windows 7 and take our time shifting stuff to the native OS.

Eóin

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,401
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #265 on: May 07, 2009, 01:46:14 AM »
Not necessarily trying to be argumentative Carol but I guess from my own experiences with small businesses and schools, most never bothered to make the switch from 2000 to XP back in the day, rather they simply waited till a PC needed replacing and came with XP anyway.

But these are all very small fish, most would have had volume licensing, but not ones that allowed an OS upgrade (which I wasn't aware existed but don't doubt either). Those types of operations don't tend to change what works, but want to know that when a update comes with a new PC that the old stuff will still work. Thats where XP mode comes into play in my opinion.

Also, who's going to switch to open source if they can't even cope with application incompatibility between XP and Vista.


f0dder

  • Charter Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,029
  • [Well, THAT escalated quickly!]
    • View Profile
    • f0dder's place
    • Read more about this member.
    • Donate to Member
Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #266 on: May 07, 2009, 02:09:16 AM »
Also, who's going to switch to open source if they can't even cope with application incompatibility between XP and Vista.
People who are severely fed up with MS, then get severely fed up with Linux and end up switching back because the darn thing is just too much work :P
- carpe noctem