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Last post Author Topic: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)  (Read 99661 times)

Edvard

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2008, 02:52:16 PM »
Strata? I thought that was what Midori was...  :huh:
Either way, here's some links to Mr. Stallman's thoughts on the cloud -
Stallman: Cloud computing is 'stupidity'
Cloud computing is a trap, warns GNU founder Richard Stallman

Hehe, somebody forgot to warn the Ubuntu bigwigs:
http://news.cnet.com...5_3-10055894-16.html
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 02:54:31 PM by Edvard »

superboyac

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2008, 03:41:55 PM »
OK, since you guys are talking about it a little here...

I just don't see how webcentric applications can offer the speed of software on your PC.  How can the data feed through the connection (fiber optic, ethernet, cable, dsl, etc.) compare with the actual processing hardware and that local speed generated from the RAM, CPU, hard disk, etc.?  I have a hard time believing that the interaction through the web can be as fast as a local interaction with your own hardware.

Carol Haynes

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2008, 03:52:04 PM »
It can't be as fast - but if you are using a word processor to write a one page letter over fast broadband it isn't going to be a problem. Now try and write a book with illustrations and you'll see how crap it will be.

superboyac

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2008, 05:12:41 PM »
I just don't like web apps...I think that's it.  I don't like the way they feel, if that makes any sense.

As far as being able to work anywhere and stuff, I'd prefer to just setup a robust synchronization system based upon my personal needs rather than have an OS manage it all in a general way.

On the other hand, I really do hate how Windows is way too slow given whatever hardware you have.  That's my big wish for OS's, to just make one that doesn't bog down just because you've installed a lot of apps or have not reinstalled in x number of years.  If all you're doing is info management, like office applications, minimal graphics applications or things that require heavy cpu usage, I don't see why even an old computer should be slow.

How off topic am I?

Darwin

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2008, 12:39:05 AM »
As far as being able to work anywhere and stuff, I'd prefer to just setup a robust synchronization system based upon my personal needs rather than have an OS manage it all in a general way.

USB thumbdrive all the way for me... I can pick up a 16GB Sandisk Cruzer Micro right now for under $40 where I am. With that kind of capacity I can put all of my documents AND enouhg portable apps to sink the Bismarck on the thing... Heck, I already do that with my 8GB version of the same drive and I can't fill it!

I'm with you on the optimized OS idea as well. Dammit! I've waited 20 years for quad core and terabyte drives and gigabytes of RAM. I want the computer to be so fast when I'm using it that it peels the skin off my face! Then I wouldn't need to exfoliate...
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

40hz

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2008, 12:54:00 PM »
This in from Windows 7 News ( http://windows7news.com/ )

Quote
Channel9 announced recently that they will post recordings of all PDC08 sessions on their website for everyone to view. Each session should not take more than 24 hours after taking place to find its way on the Channel 9 homepage which is an excellent opportunity for anyone not attending to view the sessions and discover all the exciting news about Windows 7.

Link to full article: http://windows7news....-all-pdc08-sessions/

This is welcome news for anyone who needs to stay on top of Windows 7 yet doesn't have 4 free days; airfare to LA, and a $2,395 registration fee(!) handy.

Thank you Mssrs. Blair and Brinkmann of Windows 7 News :Thmbsup: :Thmbsup:
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 01:05:31 PM by 40hz »

nosh

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2008, 01:22:00 PM »
I just don't like web apps...I think that's it.  I don't like the way they feel, if that makes any sense.

I have to agree. Even if speed isn't that much of a problem (I don't have high-speed broadband here but I remember browsing from a public library in Toronto, I'd click on a normal sized mp3 online and it would start playing like it was on the HDD), reliability very much is, and will be for years to come. How often does one witness technology fcuking up at the highest level? CNN/BBC anchors losing audio with each other... :/
Online apps make excellent backup alternatives but it would really suck to be shut out of your OS coz the Internets are broken.

Quote
How off topic am I?
Not off topic enough to stop me from taking it a bit further. :P

40hz

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2008, 02:42:56 PM »
I just don't like web apps...I think that's it.  I don't like the way they feel, if that makes any sense.

As far as being able to work anywhere and stuff, I'd prefer to just setup a robust synchronization system based upon my personal needs rather than have an OS manage it all in a general way.

You are not alone in your opinion. I can't stand web apps. I still call my computer a personal computer.

We spent the last 30 years getting away from time-sharing terminals on tightly controlled mainframes. Now it seems we're trying to go right back there. The only real difference between a web app and a terminal/mainframe "solution" is that the terminals are smarter; and the monolithic mainframes have since been reborn as clusters of machines spread out all over creation. This is progress?

Then there's 'reality' to think about. I saw a major US city completely paralyzed by the destruction of only two of its major buildings just a few years ago. In the wake of that, why would anybody want to put all their computing eggs in one basket? Is the Internet backbone really all that bulletproof? It was designed to absorb physical damage - not cyber-attacks. The very technologies that allow its datagrams to withstand a nuclear strike also make it very difficult to hunt down and extinguish any malware that exploits its decentralized robustness.

This is not paranoia. This is the simple acknowledgment that a major piece of critical technology is built on a foundation of wishful thinking about how the world would use it. William Gibson summed it up best with his most famous quote: "The Street finds its own uses for things."

IMHO -"web for everything" is a real bad idea. Dangerous too. :nono2:

Quote
How off topic am I?

Dunno...looks to me like you rammed a wooden stake right into the heart of the subject. :Thmbsup:

« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 02:49:03 PM by 40hz »

Ehtyar

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2008, 07:52:21 PM »
It's a shame there's really no way to display emphasis in programming, otherwise I'd have used it in conjunction with:
Portable Software > *
;)

Ehtyar.

MrCrispy

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2008, 11:01:05 PM »
Web based/cloud computing is not just limited to running apps on remote servers. There's nothing preventing an app having a cached local copy of its program, data and services, and using that for performance, and accessing the cloud when its not cached, to update itself etc. In fact .NET contains these mechanisms today. At work we have intranet apps deployed using ClickOnce that run locally, but if there's a new version it gets downloaded and installed locally automatically.

Cloud computing is also the only way I see to have a truly universal presence - i.e having the same computing experience no matter where you are or what device you use to access the cloud (i.e. the internet). Think about email. Today many of us take webmail for granted. I know for sure that without gmail I would never be able to send/receive mail from multiple places and have it all be in sync. Could you do this with a normal desktop email client? Esp without IMAP?

The way I see it, Azure is Microsoft's technology to bring highly scalable distributed apps, the sort of thing Google does (gmail, search, maps) to the Windows audience with a very strong developer base.

zridling

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2008, 01:21:21 AM »
Quote
[MrCrispy]: (1) Cloud computing is also the only way I see to have a truly universal presence.... (2) Azure is Microsoft's technology to bring highly scalable distributed apps....

The great advantage to #1 is that it's platform-independent; OS choice recedes, while personal choice increases. The great disadvantage to #2 is if Microsoft tries to create a walled online community, much like they did with MSN back in 1995-96. (AOL was the first?)

superboyac

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2008, 10:39:22 AM »
Oh yeah, good point...AOL.  AOL sucked.

40hz

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2008, 11:20:17 AM »
Web based/cloud computing is not just limited to running apps on remote servers. There's nothing preventing an app having a cached local copy of its program, data and services, and using that for performance, and accessing the cloud when its not cached, to update itself etc. In fact .NET contains these mechanisms today. At work we have intranet apps deployed using ClickOnce that run locally, but if there's a new version it gets downloaded and installed locally automatically.

I think the scenario you're describing here is more a mixture of Thin Client or Client/Server, network update services, and remote backup applications than what most "cloud" providers are envisioning. There's nothing new with that. Citrix and others have been providing services like those for years.

But if you're dependent on a server to push an application or data down to a local PC, you still have a single point of failure regardless of whether your apps and data are cached locally or not. It also presumes the presence of electrical power to the client machine if the caching is done to RAM rather than to disk. Which may be fine if a only a single building or city block has been blacked out. It's becomes a bigger problem when there's a full-bore regional power outage that not only takes out your PC, but also your company data center located 500 miles away - along with all the network routers in between!

If my network is down when I come into work, I can still use Excel or Word if they're installed on my hard drive. But if I'm running something like Citrix, or a web app suite, I can't do much of anything other than boot up. And if I'm running a pure thin client, I can't even do that. In short - no server or network connection - no party.

And that's where the problem lies.

The whole idea, and driving force, behind cloud computing and web applications is that they will eventually replace the desktop rather than augment it.

Software companies, much like the movie and music business, want to get out of issuing hard media and do everything via networks. Networks they own and control. And once that infrastructure gets adopted, the era of personal computing will come to an end. Unfortunately, much of the flexibility and choices we seem to take for granted in our computing environment will go out the door with it. Information will become just one more regulated utility, no different than water, gas, or electricity..

And we all know how well utilities have fostered technical innovation. Like Henry Ford said, you can get it in any color so long as it's black. *;D

*For Extra Credit:

Do you know why the Model-T Ford was only manufactured with a black finish?

The answer had absolutely nothing to do with what was best for the customer - and everything to do with what worked best for the Ford Motor Company. Look it up if you don't believe!

Darwin

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2008, 11:56:10 AM »
For Extra Credit:[/b]

Do you know why the Model-T Ford was only manufactured with a black finish?

The answer had absolutely nothing to do with what was best for the customer - and everything to do with what worked best for the Ford Motor Company. Look it up if you don't believe!
[/color]

Hence, the famous quip attributed to Henry Ford:

Quote
You can havea Model T in any colour you like as long as it's black
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

zridling

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2008, 01:33:55 PM »
Quote
[40hz]: Software companies, much like the movie and music business, want to get out of issuing hard media and do everything via networks. Networks they own and control. And once that infrastructure gets adopted, the era of personal computing will come to an end. Unfortunately, much of the flexibility and choices we seem to take for granted in our computing environment will go out the door with it.

To me that means a boon for two things: (1) open source apps, who are not [necessarily] dependent on outside income, or any income. Every medium like Azure will likely be tied to a TOS (terms of service) agreement which will start out strict and only become more restrictive over time. Break one rule and you've broke them all. No notice; no warning; your 'cloud' data is locked until you pay up or submit. (2) Local storage devices, notably HDs.

From what little I've read, however, Microsoft is pushing Azure for business, not for users. Is that right?

superboyac

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2008, 04:28:25 PM »
Is it me, or do most of the changes and improvements in Windows 7 seem sort of irrelevant in the big picture?  I don't know about you guys, but I really could care less about how the windows and transparencies look, I don't care what media players are updated because I'm just going to use something else that's better, I don't care about improved start button or anything like that.

What I do care about is:
--Is it fast?  Seriously?  If I have a quad-core system and all I do is email, office applications, web browsing (i.e. not gaming or anything that is remotely intensive to the system), does the system as a whole feel speedy and fast?  I mean, honestly, I use windows now and it doesn't seem all that much faster than what I was doing 5 years ago.  And will it slow down for no reason after using it for a couple of years.  Just because you've installed a lot of software doesn't mean a system should slow down.

--Is it going to be easy to use and tweak, and not be overly paranoid about security and such?

--Speed, speed, speed!!!  I can't emphasize this enough.  I want fast to boot, fast to shut down, fast to open multiple applications.  TO me, it just feels like that the increase in processing power over the years hasn't translated to an increase in speed.

Darwin

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2008, 06:23:10 PM »
So, er, reading between the lines, I'm sensing that overall performance is an issue for you, Superboyac?

Please try to be more clear in the future - these vague, touchy-feely posts are really hard to decipher   :P

Seriously, Vista on a dual-core system with 3GB RAM is PLENTY quick!
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

superboyac

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2008, 06:45:13 PM »
So, er, reading between the lines, I'm sensing that overall performance is an issue for you, Superboyac?

Please try to be more clear in the future - these vague, touchy-feely posts are really hard to decipher   :P

Seriously, Vista on a dual-core system with 3GB RAM is PLENTY quick!
Haha, yeah, speed is pretty much my main concern.  Your Vista may be fast now, but will it be fast in 5 years?  My point is, the system shouldn't slow down just because some time has passed.  That's what happens to Windows.  I say this as a person who doesn't do really that much that requires a lot of processing power.  Like, my virus protection now shouldn't be that much slower in 5 years on the same computer.  It's just virus protection.  Outlook 2010 shouldn't be that much slower than 2007 on the same computer.  It's just a freakin email program.  It's stuff like that that bothers me.  What is happening over time that makes the computer slow down like that?  I can understand why gamers need new systems every few years, or graphic designers, or other people who deal with programs that really need the latest and greatest installed.  But I see no reason why office users should feel severe performance hits just because it's been 5 years.  Hell, even 10 years from now, things should be relatively quick in my view.  Programs shouldn't add unnecessary bulk and OS's shouldn't slow down for no reason.

OK, I think I'm off topic...again.

Darwin

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2008, 07:04:22 PM »
PCMag snagged a milestone build of Windows 7 - here's a peek:

http://www.pcmag.com...,2817,2333434,00.asp
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

Darwin

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2008, 07:12:38 PM »
Incidentally, re: Windows slow down over time - I didn't really experience this with either Win2k or WinXP. I found it easier to keep my systems "clean" with these NT based OS's and have been very happy with both. I think the big problem is that software that we install down the road is "optimized" for hardware that is often higher spec than our systems because what is "high-end" today is "average" tomorrow. Don't know if that is clear or not... Probably not - I'm running on a couple of nights of fractured sleep and can think clearly only of a pillow. And my duvet.
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

MrCrispy

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2008, 12:19:25 AM »
There are some features in Windows 7 apart from the UI which are exciting  -

- Fastboot (or whatever its called), which speeds up booting by parallelizing device initialization among other things

- support for VHD's (virtual hard disk). This should revolutionalize backup and imaging. Imagine backing up your pc to a vhd image and then booting up another pc from it over the network.

- New engineering process (http://blogs.msdn.co...from-the-bottom.aspx) should make the OS more stable

Honestly, I was expecting more. Someof the stuff which is not there (or not announced yet at any rate)

- MinWin kernel
- ditching legacy compatibility and running all legacy apps in a VM
- application virtualization (SoftGrid) technology
- optimizing the OS binaries to contain only new API's and cut out the fat (sort of what Snow Leopard is aiming for)
- fixing Explorer's IO bound nature
- opening up the incredible power of DWM (Vista's graphics engine) to allow 3rd party apps that can then easily do things like Expose, theming etc on the desktop
- allowing tags+metadata to be added to any file type


zridling

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2008, 02:48:46 AM »
Although I don't care for the Mac-like taskbar, the screenshots look fantastic. (The taskbar is changes with different themes.)

jumplists.png

nosh

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2008, 03:11:45 AM »
So pretty!  :-*
( I wonder why no one at MS has thought of incorporating a popup launcher like FARR/Launchy into the OS.  :tellme: )

Waitasec, is that what the Run dialog is supposed to be?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 03:14:21 AM by nosh »

f0dder

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2008, 03:27:32 AM »
Imho zridlings screenshot above is ugly - Vista's start menu and taskbar, on the other hand, are simple and stylish (yes, that's f0dder praising something in Vista - the sky is falling).

hell_freeze.jpg
- carpe noctem

nosh

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Re: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing)
« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2008, 03:36:19 AM »
Oh come on f0dder, you've expressed a liking for their cursor set before this - still have a bump on my head to prove it.

[ I'll remember to use the <sarcasm> tags the next time I say something nice about the Vista taskbar and its clones. ]