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Last post Author Topic: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!  (Read 34160 times)

nosh

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2008, 04:58:04 AM »
Can a router block unsolicited outgoing traffic? There's a BIG difference between malware screwing up my system and malware calling home and sending out my personal information. And just coz some relatively sophisticated app can do that anyway, irrespective of which firewall I'm using, doesn't mean I give the green light to any script kiddie to do that. An outgoing alert has actually helped me detect malicious activity on my system on one occasion so fact > theory as far as I'm concerned.

f0dder

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2008, 05:36:01 AM »
nosh: outbound blocking of the type you want is a false sense of security - and it tends to make people lazy. To the point where you probably don't realize you've got a piece of malware because it's hijacking an internet explorer connection and sending out whatever as a perfectly legitimately-looking HTTP connection on port 80. If you want outbound filtering that works, we're talking a completely different level of sophistication, and fascist-tightened firewall rules.

Otherwise, you're far better off with simple a NATing router without DMZ, Windows Firewall to protect against LAN/WIFI attacks, and possibly a decent pro-active/behavioral-blocking antivirus app.
- carpe noctem

TucknDar

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2008, 11:22:09 AM »
So the ribbon will find its way into the Windows Firewall?



 :P

Carol Haynes

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2008, 11:49:02 AM »
And why not - of course it would only have one tab with two settings On and Off - but wouldn't it look pretty ;)

Paul Keith

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2008, 03:45:31 PM »
So the ribbon will find its way into the Windows Firewall?  :P

That might just make me enable it.  :-*

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The Windows Firewall is quite adequate, it's stable, and it's light on resources. The bad things said about it has mostly been out of ignorance, FUD, or marketing interests from the various software firewall vendors. If you need outbound filtering, you need a proper firewall box, not a software firewall on client machines.

Ignorance is the core issue that makes the firewall most dangerous.

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End-users generally don't need to mess with the firewall, especially since most proper apps these days add exceptions during install or config time.

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Windows Firewall turned out to be one of the two most significant reasons (the other being DCOM activation security)[4] that many corporations did not upgrade to Service Pack 2 in a timely fashion. Around the time of SP2's release, a number of Internet sites were reporting significant application compatibility issues, though the majority of those ended up being nothing more than ports that needed to be opened on the firewall so that components of distributed systems (typically backup and antivirus solutions) could communicate.

Security through ignorance is much more dangerous than security through obscurity.

Grorgy

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2008, 04:48:56 PM »
I really do not understand how being ignorant of what the firewall is up to makes it dangerous.  Seems to me that for even the most novice user then a firewall like the windows one is a little piece of security you can have which takes no work on your part.

f0dder

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2008, 04:54:41 PM »
I really do not understand how being ignorant of what the firewall is up to makes it dangerous.  Seems to me that for even the most novice user then a firewall like the windows one is a little piece of security you can have which takes no work on your part.
Exactly. The Windows Firewall generally "just works". If a normal user is presented with all kinds of prompts to add firewall rules, bad things happen.
- carpe noctem

VideoInPicture

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2008, 07:05:04 PM »
I would like to see mouser's ScreenshotCaptor done with a ribbon interface. I think it would be a good fit.

I agree for simple programs, they shouldn't use the ribbon because it takes up too much screen space.

I also think that it's not a good idea to put the ribbon on Internet Explorer because it would crowd the screen. However, from seeing some people's browsers with their bookmarks and toolbars.....
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Paul Keith

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2008, 07:48:32 PM »
I really do not understand how being ignorant of what the firewall is up to makes it dangerous.  Seems to me that for even the most novice user then a firewall like the windows one is a little piece of security you can have which takes no work on your part.

How many times do I need to copy paste this?  :P

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Windows Firewall turned out to be one of the two most significant reasons (the other being DCOM activation security)[4] that many corporations did not upgrade to Service Pack 2 in a timely fashion. Around the time of SP2's release, a number of Internet sites were reporting significant application compatibility issues, though the majority of those ended up being nothing more than ports that needed to be opened on the firewall so that components of distributed systems (typically backup and antivirus solutions) could communicate.

It's like not understanding why windows update is bad. Yes, the concept is simple enough but when you start having a company that adds WGA activation out of the blue, hardware/software incompatibility and other things that makes having it act like a russian roulette, then yes, it's a bad thing. In the case with the XP firewall, it was near useless. Something that made you think you were safe but of course you had to add lots of other security apps like a decent antivirus and a decent anti-spyware and by the time you have them all installed, it becomes what it is: something that you don't even need enabled because it wasn't protecting you enough in the first place and only either made it a headache for ignorant users or made these same ignorant users feel secure while they go install all the junk into their PC.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 07:53:06 PM by Paul Keith »

Grorgy

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2008, 11:41:11 PM »
Copying one paragraph from a badly researched wikipedia article is all very well, but at least one of the references the article uses says the the xp firewall significantly improved security, and sure some businesses may not have been ready for it, or the change was not communicated well enough, whatever.

Paul Keith

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2008, 03:10:43 AM »
Well, with regards to this topic, I don't think better research would have helped. Software firewalls are in themselves a hit or miss type of security that can differ based on one's preference. (see f0dder and nosh's opinion)

Of course anything that works will be said to greatly improve one's security especially in the stinking bile of virus goo that is Windows. I'm sure there are even people out there that would stand by Norton because it's enough, then there would be people that would stand by the old Spybot + AdAware Spyware combo because it's enough, then there would be people that would stand by AVG because it's enough. All three different levels of security quality but also have people who would stand by that there's better. Isn't that always the case with security programs?

The key thing with these programs though is that they should never be installed by default especially when they can break something in my opinion or at least have a way for average users to know the difference rather than just secure them when clearly the operating system is still very vulnerable even with it on especially on a not yet updated Windows.

Curt

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2008, 03:59:05 AM »
...they should never be installed by default especially when they can break something in my opinion

- self ironic pun intended?  ;D  :D :P


Paul Keith

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2008, 06:29:14 AM »
Haha  :D

MrCrispy

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2008, 06:11:22 PM »
I don't understand the hate for the ribbon. Its a fresh UI idea backed up with lots of research and has good intentions, it seems people like to hate on it (I'm not talking about the discussion here) just because its from Microsoft. Somehow I think if Apple had done this it would be hailed as the 'best user interface in the world' to thunderous applause for Steve Jobs :)

jgpaiva

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2008, 06:16:07 PM »
MrCrispy: My "hatred" really has nothing to do with microsoft or with the ribbon itself, I really like them both.
My problem is this way of incorporating it in situations that really don't make sense (where there are way to few options for it to be useful).

Paul Keith

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2008, 06:24:08 PM »
I don't understand the hate for the ribbon. Its a fresh UI idea backed up with lots of research and has good intentions, it seems people like to hate on it (I'm not talking about the discussion here) just because its from Microsoft. Somehow I think if Apple had done this it would be hailed as the 'best user interface in the world' to thunderous applause for Steve Jobs :)

That's the internet for you.

Lashiec

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2008, 06:59:18 PM »
Personally, I couldn't care less about an interface change in apps I don't use, but I'm interested in what's the reasoning behind these changes. Is it because of the novelty factor, and the attractiveness of the Ribbon, that Microsoft changed the UI of two simple programs, so they could have some visible changes from Vista to Windows 7, and thus sell the OS as a really newer Windows, while ignoring all the reasons behind the existence of the Ribbon, just like most apps using it are doing? Or is it because of the future addition of major features to Paint and Wordpad that would need a different UI to accommodate its usage?

We're probably a bit early in the Windows 7 development process to actually answer these, but in any case, both paths are not exactly worth following, the first one for being just a marketing gimmick, and the second one, for antitrust concerns. And considering that things like Movie Maker or Live Mail are already being stripped from Windows in favour of their webware counterparts, perhaps it's time to clean up even more fluff?

I would say be bold - drop all compatibility with non NT systems for a start. There are no preNT operating systems still supported by OS so why saddle everyone with compatibility layers etc.. If they want compatibility with earlier Windows why not redesign VirtualPC to run apps transparently on the desktop in the correct virtual OS?

YEAH, I'm all for this. Less hassle for everyone, and probably the compatibility rate would go even higher.

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Next, get rid of ALL the eyecandy nonsense. Have themes like in Windows 98 if you must but get rid of all the stuff that demands a specific graphics card type or capacity - windows should be able to run on a system with built in graphics with minimal use of memory.

No, no, even the Amiga OS has hardware compositing right now. What Windows 7 needs are better ways to turn graphic gimmicks into useful things, either via new features in the OS, or by letting developers play with them.

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For me one crucial idea would be don't install any services unless you actually need/use them. The first time you use an app that needs service X just install it at that point - they can easily sit in a folder inside the Windows folder to make this simple - and make it so that when you exit an app any services that you only use for that app are automatically stopped and unloaded. That way no one would need apps like nLite to strip out all the unnecessary CPU hogging processes that serve no purpose for 99% of users.

Yep, they're already looking into this for the boot process, reduce the boot time by just starting the minimal amount of services (among other things).

  • it's too 1st grade-looking, as if I'm too stupid to use a menu

Which is fine, I prefer to feel like a 1st grader which can reach the function he wants in two clicks (just one if you reuse it) than like a PhD traversing through cascading menus over and over again. Yes, I know I can accelerate the use of those functions using keyboard shortcuts, but there's a limit in how many you can remember per app without confusing the ones used by other app, and office suites have too many.

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  • eats up a ridiculous amount of valuable screen space (float this thing as a sidebar since we're all using WIDEscreens now)

Indeed, although that could be easily solved if the ribbon could be zoomed out or hidden with just one shortcut (I think Office 2007 has the latter function).

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  • it diminishes the role -- and efficiency -- of keyboard shortcuts.

I don't know in which way, the shortcuts are already there, and IIRC there's another shortcut to show which keys are used for each function. Besides, you can install that FARR-like plugin for Office and search through the functions.

Paul Keith

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2008, 09:35:11 PM »
Quote
Besides, you can install that FARR-like plugin for Office and search through the functions.

Hmm... I don't use FARR but this sounds interesting. Care to elaborate?

wreckedcarzz

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2008, 10:26:03 PM »
The ribbon looks cool/flashy/Vistay IMO, but I've never used it - I like the traditional menus. Not all of us have widescreens, nor 24" (or 30") monstrosities capable of 8,000,000x4,500,000 resolution (that would be 16:9) (yet). The 4:3 and 5:4's live on (it is 4:3 and not 3:4.. or.. whatever...).

Smaller is better, and more compatible with older/smaller screens (IMO).

Lashiec

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #69 on: September 24, 2008, 07:58:14 AM »
Hmm... I don't use FARR but this sounds interesting. Care to elaborate?

I'll let others elaborate for me :P

CWuestefeld

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #70 on: September 24, 2008, 09:15:23 AM »
Mouser will like this, I guess:

E-mail, photo programs stripped from Windows 7
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Microsoft has decided that Windows 7 won't include built-in programs for e-mail, photo editing, and movie making, as was done with Windows Vista, CNET News.com has learned.

The software maker included Windows Photo Gallery, Windows Mail, and Windows Movie Maker as part of Vista, but later chose to offer separate downloadable Windows Live programs that essentially replaced those components with versions that could connect to online services from Microsoft and others.

Microsoft told CNET News late Monday that it has decided to remove those features entirely from Windows 7 and instead offer only the service-connected Windows Live versions as optional free downloads.

Paul Keith

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #71 on: September 24, 2008, 02:52:31 PM »
Hmm... I don't use FARR but this sounds interesting. Care to elaborate?

I'll let others elaborate for me :P

Thanks! In the words of Carol:

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Wow! That's brilliant - probably better than the 2007 ribbon or 2003 toolbars !

Now this is what everyone needs!  ;D

Carol Haynes

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #72 on: September 24, 2008, 05:51:41 PM »
Yep - and I still think so - whenever I can't find something I use it and it finds it quickly and reminds me where to find it next time and the shortcut.

JohnFredC

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #73 on: October 08, 2008, 11:12:57 AM »
Johnny-come-lately here, but...

There are so may reasons the ribbon is bad GUI it's hard to find a place to begin.  Maybe I'll write an in-depth post some day. It's not about resistance to change, or the newbie vs. experience dichotomy.  It's simply about poor attention to human factors.

For one perspective, consider that toolbar/ribbon icons are targets for mouse movement... almost like ducks in an arcade shooter game.  Which is easier to locate and hit... one duck in a (one-degree of freedom) row of ducks (aka toolbar) or one duck in a crowd (two-degrees of freedom) of similar ducks (aka "ribbon")?

The ribbon slows your targeting down by requiring additional cognition (and additional clicking compared to a toolbar or menu: try both methods and count your clicks) to find the tool you need, then makes it more difficult to actually hit that icon by crowding other icons into the circle of confusion for mouse movement, increasing the chances you'll click the wrong icon by accident.

The most aggravating thing is that MS completely abandoned what I considered the best toolbar metaphor around: the Office toolbar system.  It's insulting that they didn't offer the ribbon as an alternative, but instead it is a total replacement for something many of us have habituated for years and liked!  They said: all of you loyal users (such as myself) who have been buying office for 2 decades because of its excellence: screw you.  You don't matter.  You don't know anything about your own productivity.  Custom toolbars?  Who needs those?  We don't, therefore you don't.

And the funny irony is that even Microsoft itself calls the one remaining toolbar in Office the "quick access" toolbar.

Sorry about the rant.







Carol Haynes

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Re: Windows 7 -- ribbons for everyone!
« Reply #74 on: October 08, 2008, 11:47:12 AM »
The ribbon slows your targeting down by requiring additional cognition (and additional clicking compared to a toolbar or menu: try both methods and count your clicks) to find the tool you need, then makes it more difficult to actually hit that icon by crowding other icons into the circle of confusion for mouse movement, increasing the chances you'll click the wrong icon by accident.

Actually I disagree -the advantage (to me anyway) of the ribbon is that the icons are much larger than the previous toolbar icons and are therefore much easier to hit without having to be nearly so accurate. I also like the fact that hovering over an icon shows you what will actually happen in the document without making the change until you click. Personally I prefer the tabbed interface of the ribbon to the plethora of toolbars in previous versions which in terms of screen real estate meant you had to keep most of them hidden. It is much quicker to click a visible tab and then the large icon than right click on a blank bit of toolbar area, find the toolbar you want, click on it, then find the toolbar wherever it happens to be since the previous use and then find the tiny icon you wanted.

The places I will agree are that the ribbon doesn't contain enough information which means that it takes a while to learn where everything is. It is also irritating that some features from previous versions are still present but not in the ribbon - so there is no obvious way to find them apart from remembering keybard shortcuts - search command addin goes a long way to solving that issue. And I do agree that the ribbon should be option so you can choose your interface - given that third party addins can provide this I can't see why MS can't provide a free addin to do the job on their own website.