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Author Topic: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!  (Read 5715 times)

Carol Haynes

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Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« on: August 15, 2008, 11:56:56 AM »
OK this is way off beam for DC.com but I know there are helpful people out there ....

I am trying to write an end of course essay about the relationship between literary texts and musical settings of those texts.

One of the works I have chosen (stupidly) to focus on is Schumann's Manfred Op 115 which is a setting of Byron's dramatic poem of the same name.

I have found loads of stuff to help me write the essay BUT (and it is a big BUT - like mine) I am short of two things:

1) The full German text Schumann used in the final work. I have a conductor's score which includes the sung text but there is a lot of spoken text as the work is a dramatic reading with music, solos and choirs.
2) The German translation Schumann used as a basis for his adaptation. The translation he used was a mainly literal translation of the Byron text by Karl Adolf Suckow (a Lutheran Pastor) also known as Posgaru.

I have spent days trawling Google and haven't managed to find either of these texts. I can't even find a book I can buy with the texts but they must exist somewhere as Manfred is occasionally performed and lots of people have written essays and Journal articles about it!

Anyone got any ideas or fancy a challenge as I am about to put a fist through my monitor!

TIA

$20 in DonationCoder credits to the first person to find them both (or I'll split it if you find one of them!)

Darwin

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Re: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2008, 02:13:52 PM »
Tried and failed  :( I'm ready to put my fist through my monitor after about 45 minutes - can't imagine what days must have been like. How much time do you have for this? Can you use interlibrary loans, or get photocopies, through the British Library?
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

Darwin

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Re: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2008, 02:14:34 PM »
PS these resources exist in libraries in HARD copy - I couldn't find any examples for sale or as downloadable electronic copy...
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

40hz

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Re: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2008, 02:57:29 PM »
You might try to contact The International Byron Society. Possibly someone there could point you in the right direction.

http://www.internati...nalbyronsociety.org/

Or try their American counterpart:

http://byronsociety.org/bsa/


Another possible source might be the archive for the Robert Schumann Society of Zwickau

http://www.zwickau.d...rs_haus/e_archiv.htm

Quote
Located at:    

Hauptmarkt 5, 08056 Zwickau
   
Phone:    

+49 (0)375-215269 (general office)
+49 (0)375-81885116 (ticket office)
Fax:    

+49 (0)375-281101
email:    

schumannhaus@zwickau.de
Director:   
   

Dr. Thomas Synofzik
Archiving and Public Relations: Anette Müller

Good luck. :)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 03:04:12 PM by 40hz »

Darwin

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Re: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2008, 03:21:12 PM »
Good idea, 40Hz the IBS forum is probably the best resource: http://www.internati...org/phpBB2/index.php
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

Carol Haynes

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Re: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2008, 03:33:09 PM »
Thanks 40Hz - yes I have tried both of those. I am exchanging emails with someone from the Byron Society which may lead to some useful info (not yet though). One of the people is a US University Professor who pointed me at some helpful essays. Unfortunately the Byron Society are probably more interested in Byron's original version than a German translation or an adapated version in German. The Schumann House were helpful but couldn't supply copies.

I have bought a number of CDs in the hope that I could find one with the text but they are all in German without even the German text (let alone an English translation). I even had a German specialist music shop looking for a suitable CD and they failed.

The original pblisher was Breitkopf & Härtel in Weisbaden. I have written to them to see if they can find it in their archives (awaiting a reply).

Darwin ... I have problems with libraries because I live in a remote area of the UK. The nearest academic library is about 40 miles away and they won't let me borrow books. With the current fuel prices it would cost a lot to drive there repeatedly - and I can't realistically photocopy dozens of pages (even if they would let me). Inter-library loan is not much use - last time I tried it it took them 6 months to get me the wrong book! I tried the British Museum but they wanted £24 per page to make a copy - it would be cheaper to pay for cloning technology to resurrect Byron!!!!

Actually days of 'googling' has been quite productive as I have found loads of journal articles that are relevant research for what I want to write. I can get copies through the Open University library online journal access - but unfortunately their search engine is nowhere near as good as google. You are supposed to be able to do full text searches of all journal articles but it is very hit and miss what it actually finds. Generally I can get the articles I find on google by looking for the relevant journal issue, but library searching of the same journals generally finds a fraction of the hits for the same words and phrases.

Thanks for trying guys - no winner yet though :P
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 03:35:02 PM by Carol Haynes »

Darwin

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Re: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2008, 04:11:18 PM »
The nearest academic library is about 40 miles away

40 miles away? Luxury! (My dad is a Yorkshireman... but the blame should really be directed at another Yorkshireman, Michael Palin).
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

Carol Haynes

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Re: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2008, 06:02:21 PM »
LOL

PhilB66

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Re: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2008, 07:14:54 PM »
Contact the Schumannhaus -  Musikbibliothek (Music library), the Robert Schumann Haus - Zwickau, or the Robert-Schumann-Gesellschaft (Schumann Society).

Have you tried the Katalog der Stadtbibliothek Bonn?

Carol Haynes

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Re: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2008, 07:51:53 PM »
Thanks Phil,

I have looked at the Society site and it only seems to refer to Schumann's period in Dusseldorf. Maybe I need to write to them.

The Zwickau site couldn't help (I emailed them)

The other two sites are beyond my German (which is pretty non-existant but I have a tame German teacher ... at least when she gets back off holiday!).

40hz

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Re: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2008, 05:34:34 AM »
You may have identified a topic that could be approved for a Doctoral dissertation considering how obscure the text your looking for seems to be.

I don't know how it works over in the UK, but over here the rule seems to be: If it can be Googled, it is not sufficiently 'scholarly' for a dissertation. ;D


Carol Haynes

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Re: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2008, 06:00:09 AM »
LOL - I know what you mean but having bought various books and musical scores I don't want to change my content of the essay. It has become a matter of pride to track the b**** down!

40hz

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Re: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2008, 07:09:04 AM »
It has become a matter of pride to track the b**** down!

The sign of the true student. And also the true master now that I think about it. ;D

Bravo!

tomos

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Re: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2008, 10:01:30 AM »
Contact the Schumannhaus -  Musikbibliothek (Music library), the Robert Schumann Haus - Zwickau, or the Robert-Schumann-Gesellschaft (Schumann Society).

Have you tried the Katalog der Stadtbibliothek Bonn?

Thanks Phil,

I have looked at the Society site and it only seems to refer to Schumann's period in Dusseldorf. Maybe I need to write to them.

The Zwickau site couldn't help (I emailed them)

The other two sites are beyond my German (which is pretty non-existant but I have a tame German teacher ... at least when she gets back off holiday!).

the first & last links there lead to the same place
with a simple search there for Schumann Manfred, I got a list of CD's & musical scores (no definite indication as to whether spoken text included in scores or not)
http://www.lib.bonn....C09&BaseURL=this (cant get direct link to the search)

If you want to contact them with a query I can do a quick & very dirty translation for you - my german is "fluent" (in the sense I can waffle :P) but not necessarily "super" :-\
Tom

Carol Haynes

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Re: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2008, 10:40:27 AM »
Thanks - I have the Kalmus Edition of the Score. It has the sung pats of the German text but not the spoken parts. (The work is a dramatised performance of the poem with incidental music and some of the poem set to music eiother for solists, ensembles or choir).

Unfortunately I think the Breitkopf and Peters Editions are  out of print.

The only full version on CD mentioned is the Carl Schuricht recording. I have a copy of this and it doesn't have any text included.

I am waiting to hear back from Breitkopf - they are the original publishers of the work.

The trouble is my essay is about how the original text is transformed both in content and meaning during the process of creating the musical work. This requires 3 stage of transformation:

  • Byron original text (English) -> German translation (Suckow)
  • Suckow text -> Schumann's German adaptation prior to composition
  • Schumann's text -> performance version of the work

Even if I can find a copy of the complete text in the piece I still need to find Suckow's original translation. It is referred to often but I can't seem to find a reference to a copy anywhere.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 10:42:58 AM by Carol Haynes »

Carol Haynes

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Re: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2008, 07:21:21 AM »
OK I have finally tracked down a copy of Schumann's adapted version of Manfred (someone at Breitkopf, the original publishers, kindly scanned me a copy).

The challenge remains though to find a copy of Suckow's original translation of the Byron!

Darwin

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Re: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2008, 12:32:42 PM »
Are you having any luck with the Suckow translation? Just curious... and hoping that you've been successful!
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

Carol Haynes

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Re: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2008, 03:56:37 PM »
Not yet - losing the will to live on this rapidly!

I do have a German translation of the whole thing but it isn't the one used by Schumann.

Carol Haynes

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Schools out - in the words of Homer "Wooo - hooo!"
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2008, 05:10:50 PM »
Yee - haa schools out for winter (possibly forever too).

Finally finished my essay and got shut of it this morning. For the time being I plan to leave university study alone (but I guess I'll get the bug again in a year or two) and concentrate on work!

I never did find a copy of the German translation - but I did enjoy the research and might write the essay I actually wanted to write sometime and see if anyone is interested in publishing it (inevitably course essays are compromises to dot the Is and cross the Ts)!

Darwin

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Re: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2008, 07:34:56 AM »
Congratulations, Carol  :Thmbsup: Glad to hear you have this behind you and that you enjoyed the process, even with the difficulties that you had tracking down your materials!
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

Carol Haynes

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Re: Anyone good with search engines - I am thoroughly frustrated!
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2008, 12:38:38 PM »
 :-* :P :D :D :D :D