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Last post Author Topic: Knock, Knock, It's the FBI  (Read 12324 times)

GooseHead

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Re: Knock, Knock, It's the FBI
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2008, 01:10:00 PM »
Everyone wants to be safe from robbery, burglary, murder, and so on.  So why attack those who are working at preventing those crimes from being committed.  Laws are established not only by the legislative authorities, but by citizen demanding the laws to be established to protect individuals and properties.  Stop attacking those who work to make your life and property safe.  If the police or the FBI came to your business and home, there was more than just a click on a web-site that initiated their investigations; there was probably other crimes being committed.

f0dder

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Re: Knock, Knock, It's the FBI
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2008, 01:26:04 PM »
This is a very sensitive topic.

I have found myself falling between a couple thousand chairs on the matter.



Freedom - I love it. It's a pretty neat thing. We could have a load of discussions for and against it but let us try and agree the it's generally a good thing. But... freedom vs. regulation. Camreas, DNA banks, big brother... that's where the issue is.

My younger brother was recently by a stone, some madman thought it was fun to drop crap from a highway bridge. And that has made me think, think, think think, and think a bit more. I was never too fond of 1984 and the implications it has brought on us. And while my political views are probably anti-liberalist :), I have never been a fan of total freedom (because it limits the freedom of other people).


OK, sorry, that was a bit too close to our fine grey line here.

Trying to re-focus, I have been having thougts about automated surveillance and and DNA banks. And the argument that they who have nothing to hide are safe, has been wheieing very heavily. If we had a global DNA bank, the idiot(s?) that nearly killed half of my family might very easily have been found.

But, Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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cranioscopical

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Re: Knock, Knock, It's the FBI
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2008, 02:55:34 PM »
I have been having thougts about automated surveillance and and DNA banks. And the argument that they who have nothing to hide are safe, has been wheieing very heavily. If we had a global DNA bank, the idiot(s?) that nearly killed half of my family might very easily have been found.

An event that threatens someone close to us does change the focus a bit!

Apart from the rights and wrongs of the issue, it's the degree of error in the systems that really scares me.

Get on the wrong list and then try to get yourself off again... from in jail?   without reasonable access?   with no funds?

How does one reach a forum in which to appeal? 

Recently, I found it a considerable challenge to reach a human being at the federal agency responsible for income tax -- and I wanted to pay some tax.  Heaven help me had I wanted to avoid it, or challenge an erroneous assessment!


 :tellme:

Carol Haynes

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Re: Knock, Knock, It's the FBI
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2008, 03:33:01 PM »
If we had a global DNA bank, the idiot(s?) that nearly killed half of my family might very easily have been found.

Trouble is DNA is not a perfect tool - for a start it isn't unique (they currently use only a few markers not the full DNA string) and it is very easy to frame someone with DND evidence planted at the scene of a crime.

I for one would be strongly opposed to submitting my DNA to a national (let alone global) DNA bank - they reckon that in the UK alone every DNA sample would match about eight to ten different people - world wide the match would be astronomically high.

there is also a groundswell of opinion that samples collected in the course of an investigation from innocent people should be destroyed. The police and government don't like that idea.

There have been a whole string of convictions in the UK based on 'expert' witness evidence that have proved to be miscarriages of justice - not least some high profile terrorist cases where innocent people had to be freed after spending years in prison.

If the police or the FBI came to your business and home, there was more than just a click on a web-site that initiated their investigations; there was probably other crimes being committed.

So much for innocent until proven guilty - now if the law enforcers knock on your door you MUST be guilty. Frightening thought.

Renegade

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Re: Knock, Knock, It's the FBI
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2008, 11:44:39 PM »
The issue to me is "reasonable restrictions on freedom."

It's reasonable to stop people from stealing from others, assaulting others, etc.

It's not reasonable to jail someone without evidence. That's what the original post was about. The IP and click thing just doesn't provide enough evidence to jail someone. It's easily summed up in 1 word: Spoofing.

As for attacking those that are supposed to protect us, I paraphrase, "Who watches the watchers?"
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Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Carol Haynes

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Re: Knock, Knock, It's the FBI
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2008, 06:20:37 AM »
As for attacking those that are supposed to protect us, I paraphrase, "Who watches the watchers?"

That is the big question - the only positive assurance we have in the long term is that all 'empires' fall when the watchers aren't kept in check - history is pretty clear on that. It may take a long time but every empire in history gets beyond itself and eventually falls when institutionalised corruption becomes endemic. Might not be our lifetime but it will happen eventually.

kartal

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Re: Knock, Knock, It's the FBI
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2008, 01:52:26 PM »
To confiscate someone`s property either physical or virtual, law enforcement should need court order. These kinds of laws should be universal laws. Goverments are using these gray areas like tborders to practice illegal activities. I just cannot believe that border agents can stop you and download whole content of your laptop to their system. It may be ok if border agent wants you to turn on your computer to make sure that it is not a cover up hoax device for dangerous content.

People who think that they are immune from such practices are wrong. I know many of us say if you are innocent why are you afraid of. I would call this such a naive understanding of powers of goverments and turbulances we are going through in today`s life. People, we are living in the future we just do not know about it. I am not saying that we should be paranoid, not at all. What I am saying that as long as there is no resistance to such inhumaine practices of goverments, goverments will push and ask for more. I would not be surprised if goverment would ask you to put security cameras that is connected to their servers in 5 years. It may sound something from future, but people are already installing cameras willingly. And our streets are full of cameras. Are we safer? Are we really safer? You know the answer everyone is living in fear so people who think that technology and forceful goverment practices are solution to these matters are dead wrong. What we need is better human beings which can be achieved only with better education and better society. Better technology and  more brutal law enforcement should not be our last hope for civilization.




I am referring this topic under slashdot, which is about laptops and border agents.

http://yro.slashdot....1551246&from=rss
« Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 02:00:08 PM by kartal »

tomos

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Re: Knock, Knock, It's the FBI
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2008, 03:29:45 PM »
What I am saying that as long as there is no resistance to such inhumaine practices of goverments, goverments will push and ask for more

1,2,3, all together now: NO, NO, NO, to all that *stuff*  ;)
Tom