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Last post Author Topic: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow  (Read 18292 times)

Carol Haynes

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2008, 06:33:57 AM »
Thanks for that summary - saved me a job. My problems with ACDsee RAW also include poor colour matching because its profiles don't seem to work properly. They were truly awful in that last non-pro version I used (and ACD acknowledged it in an email and said I would have to wait for the next version). Pro version was OK but not a patch on the other tools I have. Haven't tried ACDSee Pro v. 2 because I don't want to spend £50 on something I don't need.

The only program I still use from ACD is FotoSlate - which is handy at times - but they won't get any more money from me any time soon.

iphigenie

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2008, 08:28:50 AM »
Thanks for that, it is very useful. I guess I should compare the RAW converters - i was just using what came with my camera out of lazyness until i started thinking about it. If the RAW workflow in ACDSEE is as clunky as you say, then I just wont have the patience for it... I hadnt tried it yet.

ACDSee is nowhere near as slick as other tools for combining fixes and effects and undoing/adjusting later. Unless it is all in their RAW tool. I like what i saw in lightroom and lightzone (lightzone offers it for jpegs too and i have a lot of those)

I have been looking at tutorials on lightroom and the beta, and I must admit it looks pretty nice. Very slick. If you know what you are doing - I dont think I understand enough (or more precisely want to take the time!) how to use all the sliders and curves. And I am sure I dont want to pay 220 pounds (although give me time, you never know. 199 dollars i might pay)

I just dont have the 100 hours and 1000 pounds to spend on being an expert (well i have them but dont want to use them for that). I wouldnt know a color profile if it bit me... it's not that I cant understand, it is just that I am not sure I want to spend the time to read, learn, then pay for all the costs. I also am not sure whether it isnt a bit of an illusion - like people with top of the range ski gear who barely can ski, maybe one converter or tool is not as good but I wouldnt do any better with the top of the range one due to lack of patience.

I'm old school when it comes to photos, taught in the time of film (still have film cameras and use them). I try to get them right the first time and forget about them if they arent. Still getting the head around the fact that some of my "bah" picture could be made stunning.

Give me time

PS: As for acdsee at the time i compared it with a few of the other tools and it had the best workflow to acquire, file, name, tag files from scanning negatives, as it would stay in acquisition mode for strip after strip until i told it to stop. Other tools would take the 4 scanned, then go back to the main interface and you had to go through the menus and "ok" "ok" "ok" etc. So I used the demo to scan half of them in. Only bought it later when they did a deal. The price and the scanning workflow is what won acdsee the sale, that and allowing me to change certain iptc tags like camera etc. which many tools just do not let you do, but which you want to do when scanning.

Carol Haynes

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2008, 08:53:13 AM »
If you want RAW processing try Pixmantec RawShooter Essentials. This is the package that Adobe bought and the team that created it moved into the LightRoom team.

It isn't LightRoom and is no longer developed but it is free and the Raw conversion is excellent (assuming your camera RAW format is old enough to be supported).

There is one snag - Adobe no longer support registration of the product so every time the app starts it asks you to register. There is a way round this though. See this thread in the forums for a script which removes the registration nag screen: http://www.pixmantec...0&page=&vc=1

There is a download link in that message for 2006 v1.2 - unfortunately I can't remember what the last RSE build was as I purchased RS Premium (hence my free copy of LightRoom) and stopped downloading the Essentials versions. 1.2 is that last version I used and it was pretty good.

The thread above hints there was a later release so you may want to look for it.

iphigenie

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2008, 10:18:36 AM »
My GX10 works natively in Adobe's RAW format I think (dng?), so I should have it easy

I'm just wading my way through hundreds of scans trying to improve them, get rid of scratches too, and I am sure the right tool could speed it up. Of course the other right tool could help me get even better final pictures... and i already own too many tools, although apart from acdsee they are aimed at image composition and manipulation. So theres this itch to scratch, this empty hook in the toolbelt...

« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 10:22:41 AM by iphigenie »

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2008, 09:20:55 PM »
Quote
I like what i saw in lightroom and lightzone (lightzone offers it for jpegs too and i have a lot of those)
lightroom does non-destructive edits to jpgs too. I use this because I'm playing a lot with HDR (bracket 3 exposures +-2ev then combine the light informaton into one 8-bit image), and spit my image out as a JPG instead of a TIFF to save space on my laptop HD. The JPG is reimported into LR (sits next to the 3 DNG source image) and I can then do a final few tweaks.

I thus find LR preferable to Photoshop/others for fast fixing. All edits are modifiable, my JPG stays untouched. The history shows you previews instantly of every step you took. You can see exactly what you did by hovering each history item, no need to wade through your adjustments layers toggling like crazy. I can make different snapshots or virtual copies in the same non-destructive way I can for RAWs. All of this is just metadata sitting in an SQLite database.

 Of course there are many things only Photoshop (or other higher-end pixel pusher) can do, and professional finishing is really a photoshop endeavour.

In terms of learning — just play! I didn't read any tutorials other than one on catalogs for LR (which I was confused about at the beginning). But all the develop tools were new to me (along with ACR). LR is very visual.

As an example take the histogram. Classically the histogram is fixed, you use sliders and numerical input to change the histogram. In LR just drag around on the histogram, drag shadows to the right and you are doing a fill light, drag highlights to the left and you are recovering. For someone who has never used an editor before this is neat, but if you are used to endless sliders, it can be disorienting. The HSL and tone dragging tools are similar. If you want to lighten just your blues in an image, click the circle in the luminance tab of the HSL panel and click and drag some blue in your image to lighten it. No need to fiddle around with sliders (they're there if you stil want them); edit visually.
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nontroppo

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2008, 10:55:24 PM »
Both lightroom and lightzone have clone/repair tools I cant figure out either - ah well, too clever for me

Here is a quick screencast, using the heal tool to stroke my vanity and remove a wrinkle :-)

1) Select the clone/heal tool (type N) - select "Heal"
2) Choose your spot size
3) Left-click on the bit you want to "disappear" and drag to the part you want to replace it with, release.

Lightroom lets you edit each spot after you've placed them, you can change source/destination/size or delete individual spots.

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« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 11:04:44 PM by nontroppo »

nontroppo

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2008, 08:58:21 AM »
I found a very useful review of LR2beta here (I link to page 2 but there is also a page 1):

http://www.computer-...om_2_beta/lr-2_2.htm

For very fast local adjustments workflow, there are a set of new key shortcuts:

Open local corrections 'K'
Show/hide Pin 'H'
Increase/decrease brush size ']' / '['
Increase/decrease feather 'Alt/Option+]' / 'Alt/Option+['
Commit a brush stroke and/or start new Enter
Delete selected pin 'Delete'
Holding down 'Alt/Option' key activates erase mode

And for the basic panel:

Quote
As a result of user feedback the engineers have enhanced the Basic adjustment panel so that it's now possible to cycle through the controls using either the comma '< 'or period '>' keys. The keyboard '+/-' keys now increase/decrease the active control, and larger adjustments can be obtained by holding down the 'Shift' key when holding down the '+/-' keys. Tapping the semi-colon ';' key resets the active control to its default value.
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« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 10:47:34 AM by nontroppo »

nontroppo

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2008, 03:20:26 AM »
I've recently tested the metadata syncing between 1.31 and 2b — basically if you make image adjustments in the beta, then export the metadata (context menu > metadata; I'm not using sidecar files), and select the image in 1.31 and load metadata, you can use the adjustments you made in 2b in 1.3. 1.3 simply ignores the new features it doesn't understand. Thus you can use the work you did (minus the new bits) in 2b and sync it to your existing work without losing it on a potential future upgrade. Good for those of us on the bleeding edge ;-)
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iphigenie

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2008, 08:07:07 AM »
It seems the beta only works for 30 days unless you own version 1 OR get an invitation code from an owner of version 1.

Anyone here has figured out how to get these issued, cause I'd love for it to stop nagging me every time I start something.

 :Thmbsup:

EDIT: thanks a lot, you know who you are  :-*
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 08:50:24 AM by iphigenie »

iphigenie

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2008, 02:02:38 PM »
Update:

Having messed about for a few weeks now I can say the following - this is purely for information in case someone is curious, and also as I hope I might be corrected and find a way to improve my working :)

* I agree on some of the cool tools in lightroom such as the per color adjustment - although lightroom is way below lightzone on that front where you can limit any effect to a color (or range) automagically. I am really tempted to buy lightzone just for that - actually would have bought it when it was on promotion last week except i lost my job so no $150+ software purchases (that and LZ seem to have messed up the exif date data on exported images, weird)

* I like the on-image tweaks available in lightroom. Some are available in acdsee but only in the destructive mode editor - although that editor is a lot more powerful

* i like the built-in versioning in lightroom, although i still tend to export different versions instead

* there *is* partial undo in acdsee RAW - its the little arrow next to the reset button. By default undo only undoes the work on the tab you are on, not everything, but you can undo everything or what has been done on other tabs.

* theres also before/after comparison although not as smooth as in LR

* other tools I get better results in acdsee which are partly familiarity - I also often use the channel combination options in the "non raw" editor (i.e. apply an effect to a new layer and merge back with the original using any of the common channel modes and custom transparency. Alas it only can do one set at once so is limited in flexibility (no tweaking the sharpness of bright and dark separately without a lot of trial and error, whereas a tool with full layers support can do it). The Shadows/Highlight tool in acdsee is very nice and almost as good as lightzone's zone tool.

* lightroom has a good workflow, although it seems aimed at printing not exporting/uploading. I work mostly digital only, no printing, and exporting seems a long winded process even after you save standard settings.

* acdsee workflow is less flexible - i like to go through the images as RAW fixing the basics then export all at once, and I didnt see an option for that

* lightroom seems far less able to cope with moving images - i move images every couple days to my external drive and this seems to puzzle lightroom

* lightroom's local effects can be very handy although most of the time i forget to even think about them

* i find acdsee much easier to use for image management and tagging though - could just be habit (I havent found a way to make lightroom detect that files have moved yet, i.e. theres no cleanup mode)

* i dont have the quality issues in acdsee that you have - most likely because it is a different camera and format, so the default settings are different. I noticed that lightroom does apply some automated fixes based on my camera model, which acdsee does not - so they look possibly a bit better on opening. But once I do the same kind of work, I have equivalent images - often the levels are a bit more subtle in acdsee but it is mostly because i am more adept at using their shadow/highlights tool. Color is often better out of lightroom, but that is because the per color HSL tool allows for more tweaking (whereas i have to go to a separate program to do this in acdsee)

* in both those tools I miss the flexibility that photoshop offers, as even with my limited knowledge i know how to do stuff in photoshop that i havent found how to do in other tools - such as different color casts for shadows/highlights, more clever sharpening (although lightzone had a way to achieve some of this, and in acdsee normal edit the channel mix allows some).

Of course you can pick up acdsee pro for around $100 whereas lightroom costs a lot more. Its almost ridiculous in pounds.

I am not saying acdsee is great, except perhaps for management, but i bought the power pack v6 cheap, then got good offers for upgrades so it was a very reasonable option for me. And I can get very good results with the (destructive) editor, in very little time.

I wish I could justify the price of photoshop&lightroom -especially since i spend an awful lot of time trying to figure out how to get certain things done in other software - but I really cannot, you're talking £1000 altogether!  - so I will continue to fumble trying to find a tool that makes it easier to a)get the full range of a picture optimally b)allow for the right kind of control of good sharpening (for everything else I think i can make do with PSP and photoimpact)

PS: still doing blipfoto and taken more pictures than is reasonable so I am now struggling to process-and-tag these!
« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 02:09:04 PM by iphigenie »

sunil_gupta20801

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2008, 02:20:04 AM »

nontroppo

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2008, 03:48:27 AM »
iphigenie: thanks for your nice writeup.

Quote
* I agree on some of the cool tools in lightroom such as the per color adjustment - although lightroom is way below lightzone on that front where you can limit any effect to a color (or range) automagically

The colour-manipulation tools are not intended to be used for masking. I agree that Lightzone (LZ) has more editing power in some ways than LR. Masking in LR can only be painted on at the moment, no automatic masks. However I found the general bezier masking tools in LZ pretty clunky to use. And the sluggishness of LZ as the edit becomes more detailed gets on my nerves.

Quote
* there *is* partial undo in acdsee RAW - its the little arrow next to the reset button. By default undo only undoes the work on the tab you are on, not everything, but you can undo everything or what has been done on other tabs.

Not very intuitive or flexible though...

Quote
* lightroom has a good workflow, although it seems aimed at printing not exporting/uploading. I work mostly digital only, no printing, and exporting seems a long winded process even after you save standard settings.

Once you've saved export settings, you can just select that in the File menu and it does it all automatically, how is that long-winded? Oh, and there is a great Flickr plugin I use all the time here:

http://regex.info/bl...ch/lightroom-flickr/

I've done exports of 100s of photos with ease.

Quote
* lightroom seems far less able to cope with moving images - i move images every couple days to my external drive and this seems to puzzle lightroom

I never move my images so don't know about this, but how should a program know where you put them?

Quote
* i dont have the quality issues in acdsee that you have - most likely because it is a different camera and format, so the default settings are different. I noticed that lightroom does apply some automated fixes based on my camera model, which acdsee does not - so they look possibly a bit better on opening. But once I do the same kind of work, I have equivalent images

Even if you check for very subtle gradations in the shadows? Not all the images I tested showed clear differences, but in most of them ACDSee was never able to match LR for the Canon RAW images I tested. Perhaps it is only Canon images, but if they haven'ttuned their engine for such a dominant manufacturer, it doesn't give me confidence for their other camera formats.

Quote
* in both those tools I miss the flexibility that photoshop offers, as even with my limited knowledge i know how to do stuff in photoshop that i havent found how to do in other tools - such as different color casts for shadows/highlights, more clever sharpening (although lightzone had a way to achieve some of this, and in acdsee normal edit the channel mix allows some).
Split-tone in LR develop module does seperate colour-cast for shadow/hightlights. As for sharpening, I find that, apart from tilt-shift type effects, I never use my powerful photoshop plugins anymore... I still would welcome more photoshop-like editing power, or even some of the masking options from LZ in LR of course!
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iphigenie

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2008, 04:35:20 AM »
Thanks for the information - Theres clearly things that lightroom does that I havent figured out yet. I suspected as much.

I am a tricky customer since I am used to acdsee for some aspects and i dont even think of clever things LR could do for me - and without manual or docs how could i?

I'll just add to some of the points

Exporting: It always comes up with the menu for exporting, and it means an export takes a lot of times. I have saved settings profiles and everything but it just doesnt seem to remember them or want to use them, up comes the popup window, then another confirmation window etc.

Color: I'll have to check the color cast thing - I didnt notice it had dark/light options.

Undo in acdsee: I wouldnt say its unintuitive, if I am on the "color" tab then reset will reset my color settings but not my shadow/highlight or crop settings. If I want to reset these I can switch to that tab, or there is this quick shortcut option. I will agree there is a *way* more powerful undo/redo in lightroom, since you always see the whole list including incremental steps whereas acdsee just shows the previous step. But even in LR i tend to reset everything and start again. The killer feature is to be able to undo one step in the past without reverting all of the other steps since. But that's a full blown editor thing.

Moving: Acdsee can figure out duplicates/moved images, probably by file names and content. It also makes it easy to organise/backup files. It has some leeway expecting you might use other tools to do things with the files. I find lightroom far more difficult to understand from that point, it just expects you just put the files in one place once, and never do anything outside lightroom... Well I dont do that - I move my images in directories and to separate drives (my notebook has limited space).
I cannot even figure out how to tell LR to remove from its database files which I have deleted, it just errors when i even hover over those thumbnails. I found the "delete" and "find missing folder" options so this will help

Lightroom/Lightzone: i totally agree that they are differently aimed, but when I am considering where to spend money since i already have all the tagging/searching/management tools they do compete :)

RAW format: if there was 1 canon RAW format you would have a point, but almost every new camera has a different format. Although the website has additional profiles to download if yours is missing.
I am lucky since my camera was created to shoot in DNG, so there is no conversion involved - yet acdsee still has a profile for it. And not many have bothered, I can tell you!

Anyway to me lightroom's strength are in the adjust/develop workflow, it is much quicker and easier to do adjustments to images, even in groups. I had no problems figuring out how to do most things in the develop mode. The library mode on the other hand is not inutitive, without any manual or help (none in the beta) I could not figure out a lot of the management/organisation tasks, so I keep going back to acdsee to do basic things. Watching some videos of LR1 helped some, and I can see how impressive it must be used right - there are a lot of things behind keyboard shortcuts that are not visible in menus and buttons (hows a new tester to know?)

Acdsee's strengths are in the file management, tagging and searching, and their (destructive) editor is surprisingly powerful. The whole RAW management and manipulation is still a very rough and primitive tool - and slow. WHich is why I am looking at other options for playing with RAW, since PSP and photoimpact arent any better. Maybe I should see what came with the camera CD after all...

As it is I would love to get this 30% of LR features I have started using, but at £300 it is just not going to happen, not unless I really really can learn to use 80% of the features...
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 04:49:57 AM by iphigenie »

iphigenie

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2008, 04:45:36 AM »
thanks for the flickr plugin, might play with that - although stretching my flickr allowance as it is

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2008, 06:34:15 AM »
UPDATE: Lightroom 2 has gone gold. The final version rocks even more than the beta. Here are the changes since the beta:

  • Hierarchical Dates and locations in the Library Filter. (Including days of the week for the date)
  • The Volume Browser in the folder panel.
  • Improved iconography for folders, collections, collection sets and output collections.
  • Dedicated keyword input field in the keywording pane.
  • Ability to add or remove metadata filter columns.
  • Improved Keyword List interface. (Including filter by keyword to manage and organize keywords)
  • Repositioned and refined dual monitor support location and experience. (Moved from right to left and the ultimate dual monitor experience is much more polished in terms of performance and stability
  • Ability to set target collection for quick collection shortcut(b). (Target any collection as the target when you hit the B key)
  • Lightroom Web, Metadata and Export SDK available on the Adobe Dev Center
  • Local control improvements
  • Complete list of local controls including, Exposure, Brightness, Contrast, Saturation, Sharpness, Clarity and a color toning option available for the brush or gradient adjustment tool
  • Additional gradient adjustment tool
  • Improved auto-mask functionality
  • Improved brush performance
  • Additional post crop vignette options: roundness, feather
  • DNG Profiles Concept
  • DNG Profile Editor available on Labs
  • Profiles for our current raw support list available
  • Match camera JPEG looks in the Calibration tab by selection Camera Standard profile
  • Export to JPEG functionality in the Slideshow Module. (Intermediate format for additional authoring tools)
  • Enhanced output sharpening
  • 64-bit memory handling improvement


Read the full changes post here: http://blogs.adobe.c...2_now_available.html

The local editing is faster and far more refined than beta, and the graduated filter simply rocks.

And Adobe have released an übercool profile editor, to allow LR to mimic camera-specific profiles more closely to the JPG/default vendor processing:

http://labs.adobe.co...dex.php/DNG_Profiles
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Carol Haynes

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2008, 08:23:34 AM »
Yes - and they have done their usual trick - the upgrade in the UK is nearly twice the price of the US upgrade!
« Last Edit: August 02, 2008, 10:04:16 AM by Carol Haynes »

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2008, 08:47:15 AM »
Indeed, Adobe's international pricing is outrageous. I get academic pricing so don't get hit by that, but still... John Nack (Photoshop product manager extraordinaire), got hit hard by disgruntled international users on his blog, and said he would investigate; but I doubt much will change. I'm surprised some european trade organisation/graphic design industry/etc hasn't instigated a lawsuit over this.
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Carol Haynes

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2008, 09:48:27 AM »
I could get academic pricing too but a new copy of LightRoom 2 is the same as the upgrade in the UK:

USUK
Retail$299£205.62 (=$406US)
Upgrade$99£81.08 (=$160US)
Academic$99£81.08 (=$160US)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2008, 10:03:30 AM by Carol Haynes »

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2008, 10:16:47 AM »
Hm, I think we get some sitewide offer, as LR cost us ~£30 new...
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Armando

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2008, 12:19:35 AM »
Am starting to look at image management etc. programs...

Lightroom seems a bit too much for me, but for those interested, here's a nice review : http://arstechnica.c...ghtroom-2-review.ars

tomos

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2008, 12:54:08 PM »
Am starting to look at image management etc. programs...

dont want to take thread off-topic but (in case you havent come across it) do a forum search for idimager - another "I havent used it" one but recommended by others here
Tom

Armando

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2008, 02:18:57 PM »
Thanks Tom! I'll have a look at it.

kartal

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2008, 03:00:18 PM »
Alternatives to Lightoom. They are not quite powerful as Lightroom but comparable to certain degree.

silkypix http://www.isl.co.jp/SILKYPIX/english/

http://www.rawtherapee.com/ (free)


Armando

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2008, 06:03:55 PM »
Wow. Interesting. Not exactly for managing/organizing my photos, but worth the look , certainly...

There seems to be a free version of silkypix too? Not sure I understand... not crystal clear on their website.

kartal

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Re: Adobe Lightroom V2.0 Beta — Killer Photo workflow
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2008, 06:40:19 PM »
Well there seems to be a free version in download section.