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Author Topic: Microsoft Visual Web Developer 2008 Express. Thoughts?  (Read 7086 times)

urlwolf

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Microsoft Visual Web Developer 2008 Express. Thoughts?
« on: February 22, 2008, 01:39:49 PM »
I cannot find any decent reviews.
Is this something like a free dreamweaver?
Does it output crappy html?

Any use for a WYSIWYG html editor?

http://www.microsoft...ess/vwd/Default.aspx

Curt

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Re: Microsoft Visual Web Developer 2008 Express. Thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2008, 02:44:51 PM »
I have not yet produced any output, but I am very impressed with Visual Web Developer 2008 Express Edition. I made my first homepage with FrontPage 2003, and VWD 2008 Express is a lot easier and much more capable. I do not understand why you would expect it to "output crappy html", but the final version of FrontPage produced okay html code - chubby maybe, but not too fat - and it has been 5 years since then, so maybe they have learned how to do by now? I would expect so.

I'll highly recommend to take the time to wacth the 38 minutes intro video.

f0dder

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Re: Microsoft Visual Web Developer 2008 Express. Thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2008, 01:08:25 PM »
Curt: frontpage produces pretty crappy HTML output... at least the versions of FrontPage I've seen. Zillions of unnecessary and redundant tags and stylesheet references - really ugly.

But I do write my HTML stuff with Notepad++, and believe that you should either be doing that or using a CMS system... setting up templates can be done with one of those WYSIWYG tools though, and then cleaned up with a pure text editor afterwards.
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mitzevo

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Re: Microsoft Visual Web Developer 2008 Express. Thoughts?
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2008, 01:28:22 PM »
I tried it.. It's not bad (and its code production is pretty clean.. should be in this age..) and pretty stream lined..apart from no decent templates, not even a mention of PHP any where.. i.e., not even a basic .php template.. How pathetic.. even for this free version.. Looks like m$ wants you to use their stuff (as usual).. but very very good for.. free :)
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Carol Haynes

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Re: Microsoft Visual Web Developer 2008 Express. Thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2008, 04:18:08 PM »
To be fair MS do not promote PHP because they want you to use .NET and ASP etc. which is what all their developments tools are built for.

Renegade

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Re: Microsoft Visual Web Developer 2008 Express. Thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2008, 05:25:09 PM »
I've heard very positive reviews of the latest FrontPage from people that HATE FrontPage.

As for VWD, I don't use it as I have VS 2008 Professional, but it's basically the same thing (albeit with extra bells and whistles). It rocks.

However, you do need to get used to the idea of "code behind" to get the most out of it. That's not hard though.

MS is far out in front of the crowd for development in this area. .NET truly is a huge departure from everything else and is the right direction. The basic way that you develop is a huge leap from the past as well (e.g. the Expression series). While it's still a work in progress, the direction is solid and you'll see in the future that others will need to immitate MS in order to make their tools as productive as the Visual Studio series.

Depending on your level of experience and needs, I'd say one of the best ways to make a web site now is to use VS with DotNetNuke (a CMS). Build the extra functionality that you need into DNN, but don't reinvent the wheel. At the end of the day, you'll end up spending much less time screwing around building things that people have done 1000x already, and 1000x better than you could do yourself. However, there is a learning curve for DNN and for the first bit it WILL be frustrating. Once you get over it though, you're in the clear and on your way to super-fast RAD.

What people need to understand (and this is what MS really "gets"), is that development today is becoming so horribly complex that nobody can possibly keep up with it anymore, and the workload needs to be distributed amongst many people. VS is geared towards that. The Expression series is the next step in the evolution of development where the front end is abstracted away from the developer and given to the designer. i.e. The various 'domains' are becoming much more granular and niche than they were in the past.

Another way to put that is that the VS development methodology easily leads to more scalable development.
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f0dder

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Re: Microsoft Visual Web Developer 2008 Express. Thoughts?
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2008, 05:41:11 PM »
I'd be very very very weary of using various people's (even if made by reputable companies (for what that's worth)) components for public web-facing sites. It's OK with issues and minor bugs for user interface components, but for stuff that's web-facing a minor bug could easily mean you get rooted.

I wouldn't even consider a component that ships without source (not that it has to be GPL-style opensource, closed source is fine - as long as it's available).
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Curt

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Re: Microsoft Visual Web Developer 2008 Express. Thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2008, 05:57:10 PM »
frontpage produces pretty crappy HTML output... at least the versions of FrontPage I've seen.

Then I would guess you saw versions '97 and 2000. I was using FrontPage 2003. Or maybe the page's code had not yet been optimized? The author had to remember to click that option, before uploading, and FrontPage 2003 would clean up the mess you had written. And it would do an okay job, producing no crap.

Renegade

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Re: Microsoft Visual Web Developer 2008 Express. Thoughts?
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2008, 05:55:07 AM »
I'd be very very very weary of using various people's (even if made by reputable companies (for what that's worth)) components for public web-facing sites. It's OK with issues and minor bugs for user interface components, but for stuff that's web-facing a minor bug could easily mean you get rooted.

I wouldn't even consider a component that ships without source (not that it has to be GPL-style opensource, closed source is fine - as long as it's available).

+1,000 for that. (I think for different reasons though.)

I do use some closed source software, but only in certain situations where I KNOW that it's solid. I'll almost always go for a source license if at all possible, and abandon things where I can't get source.

I've been burned very badly from not having source available, and the developer closing shop. NOT a good thing.
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f0dder

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Re: Microsoft Visual Web Developer 2008 Express. Thoughts?
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2008, 07:03:57 AM »
I've been burned very badly from not having source available, and the developer closing shop. NOT a good thing.
Exactly. And it's especially bad if you have data locked up in some proprietary format... heck, even XML or data in a standard database can have a proprietary feel to it, if it's nontrivial and undocumented. Easier to reverse engineer than a closed binary format, but still...
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