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Last post Author Topic: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?  (Read 9090 times)

urlwolf

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starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« on: January 17, 2008, 10:30:45 AM »
I'm this close to starting a revolt against Opera.

The basic complaint is that they don't care about their users, and our obligation as consumers is to protest. They do have a forum, but many features asked are never introduced; we are talking about thoushands of posts in a thread. Opera is blind to that.

Similar situations of massive amounts of users taking action: the Save XP petition.

Basically, this would involve to set up a website and start collecting "signatures".

Do you think it's worth it?

tomos

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2008, 10:55:26 AM »
I'd happily sign/support it, but no idea if it's worth it...
Tom

yksyks

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2008, 11:27:13 AM »
I left the Opera forum some time ago, there's no feedback from the developers and most of the members only post nonsense or insult each other. To be honest, though, the latest Opera 9.5 beta (Kestrel) is the most compatible of all versions since version 3. I was also tempted to leave Opera, but I changed my mind lately and it's still my default browser. Also, almost all "problematc" websites I reported there are displaying quite well in Kestrel now.

I don't believe it's worth organize anything you suggest, nobody would care. On the other hand, I just signed the Save XP petition, thanks for the tip.

nontroppo

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2008, 11:59:25 AM »
What is the particular feature? I'd be happy to support a constructive cause, Vive la RevoluciĆ³n!  8)

By constructive, I mean the more a feature is fleshed out with UI mockups and usercase scenarios, the better traction it will receive. I have numerous threads in the wishlist forum myself I'd love to see included. Other wishes have finally arrived (page indexing in 9.5 being my current fave).

As someone who has some insight into Opera, I can tell you that the wishlist is read, and valid wishes are added to their internal feature tracking list. But Opera has some clear development principles they are pretty clear about (no API for a whole raft of reasons). I've discussed about an API, and they are pretty clear that the rendering core is both more stable and more secure as those possible attack vectors are not available. That makes Opera less flexible, and I know several users on this forum and doubtlessly elsewhere who refuse to use Opera as it doesn't support Roboform. Personally I choose not to use Roboform as it doesn't work with Opera.

FARR Wishes: Performance TweaksTask ControlAdaptive History
[url=http://opera.com/]

housetier

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2008, 01:49:19 PM »
You can't call it "secure" when their email program does not support GnuPG or PGP.

I used to like opera a lot, but it is hindering my workflow and I can't have that.

The petition might work, IF enough people sign it. I'd sign because I want people to have many webbrowsers to choose from.

jgpaiva

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2008, 02:46:20 PM »
From what i understand, there are several requests to have php (or gnupg) on M2.
I'm an M2 user, and i'm not quite sure i'd use it, because i don't find much use for it. On the other hand, if it was supported by all major email clients, it'd become widelly used and i'f have use for it ;)

PS: It'd be fun to receive all DC e-mails encrypted (if M2 had this feature), at least gmail wouldn't be able to read ALL my emails :)

Lashiec

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2008, 08:45:55 PM »
I would sign it, but I don't know if it would have any effect at all. As nontroppo clarifies the API is closed tight, so that means the Opera developers would not consider the addition of an extension system ever. To tell you the truth, I don't think an public API would open the floodgates to migration from Firefox (as people always is saying an extension system would bring the gap between the two browsers), maybe for hardcore users, but it would not be that noticeable. Opera wasn't at the place nor at the hour, so they missed the train.

But enough ranting about unrelated things. I'd like the Opera guys to add real spellchecking for Opera, like Firefox, without relying in Aspell. I think it would be a problem to use OSS-licensed dictionaries, but maybe there's a workaround, like commercial and affordable options, or BSD-licensed alternatives :). I'd also like the content blocker to be more powerful and to work better, Kestrel seems to improve it but I don't know at what level. And something like Launchy (the extension), would be great, again Kestrel has native support for adding at least other browsers, but I'd like to add other programs and sets of defined extensions to launch those programs once I instructed it to do so from an page element using the context menu. And IE QuickTabs, I want that!

(Now someone will come and say: With Firefox and extensions you could have that, etc., etc. ;D)

TucknDar

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2008, 01:01:03 AM »
(Now someone will come and say: With Firefox and extensions you could have that, etc., etc. ;D)
Oh yes! A browser flame war hot on the heels of the "appropriate tagging" thread!!!  :stars: ;)

Ampa

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2008, 08:03:08 AM »
I'd like the Opera guys to add real spellchecking for Opera, like Firefox, without relying in Aspell.

Have you tried oSpell?

oSpell Demo.pngstarting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?

oSpell is a tiny user-javascript files which extend the Opera browser to add an ajax dictionary service to all text fields within a web-page. One click initiates the scan, misspelled words are highlighted, can be corrected interactively via dropdowns, and then accepted or rejected.

Ampa

Lashiec

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2008, 08:40:52 AM »
That one looks really neat, I'll give it a shot later. Thanks!

jgpaiva

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2008, 09:08:23 AM »
Whoa.. That spellchecker is really cool! I just installed it.
Too bad it doesn't spellcheck on real time, you have to press a button for it it to check the spelling.

Lashiec

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2008, 01:15:37 PM »
A-W-E-S-O-M-E, that's one less thing to complain about Opera. And I actually like that I have to press the button for spell checking, that forces me to do some proof reading and (hopefully) avoid eating words in any language ;D. Too bad it seems there's no support for Galician :( (it does not even recognize the word, d'oh!)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 06:58:47 PM by Lashiec »

zridling

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2008, 11:35:37 PM »
What nontroppo said. With Opera I no longer needed Roboform. Opera saves them based on each page and on top of a backup, I have a text backup of all my PW variations just in case hell breaks loose.

Plasma Man

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2008, 12:04:05 AM »
As someone who has some insight into Opera, I can tell you that the wishlist is read, and valid wishes are added to their internal feature tracking list. But Opera has some clear development principles they are pretty clear about (no API for a whole raft of reasons)...
That's got me curious about Opera's business plan. I've always had the impression that Opera has aimed - almost from day one - to be a significant player in the mobile arena. That would mean that the desktop browser becomes the first step for testing out ideas which can be taken into products for mobiles, UMPCs etc. A reasonable assessment? (I'd be petitioning for greater community input for mobile products.)

This isn't such a bad list of partnerships in a highly competitive market ...
http://www.opera.com...any/partners/mobile/

PS: If you are curious about the financial reports http://www.opera.com...y/investors/finance/ all income and expenses are listed as TNOK which is in NOK (Norwegian Kroner). Not sure what "T" stands for ... Total / before Tax ? (Norwegian accountants speak up!).


nontroppo

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2008, 12:06:02 PM »
A reasonable assessment? (I'd be petitioning for greater community input for mobile products.)

Opera have publicly stated their commitment to Desktop, and the resources that go into it (and the returns they get off it), justify that continuation in and of itself. Where Opera are clearly moving though is in unifying the web irrespective of what device you are using. Opera Link is the first step in that process, but expect to see syncing on a much greater level. The idea is that it will be irrelevant if you are on a cheap Motorola mobile, a nintendo DS, a Nokia web tablet, a mini-PC, or a desktop, you can use your data via a consistent interface.

Opera Mini is a sensational app allowing millions who've never surfed the oppourtunity to do so. And unlike some other vendors (Apple for example where iPhone-only sites are blooming), Opera have pushed strongly for a unified web, universal access and open standards.
FARR Wishes: Performance TweaksTask ControlAdaptive History
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housetier

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2008, 06:29:44 AM »
and towards not fixing annoying bugs in opera for linux: when I send it a URL to open in the already running instance of opera, it either raises itself and steals my focus, or it is incapable of handling URLs with commas.

I got someone from opera to accept this as a bug and was asked to keep quiet about it. I now see why: since version 8.something until 9.5 they have been unable or unwilling to fix this. As long as opera insists on interrupting my work flow I can't bring myself to use it longer than 10 minutes.

So, nontroppo, if you have some insight and maybe can give "stronger" feedback than a normal guy like me, please make them fix this :)

Other browsers have rough edges too, but at least I can compensate them. I cannot easily compensate for focus-stealing behavior.

housetier

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2008, 04:19:06 PM »
I figured out what the issue was. The output from opera --help are not really clear.

In order for opera to not raise itself when it receives -remote commands, the initial instance has to be started with -noraise. I was thinking one could send a signal to the running instance with -noraise -remote but that was wrong.

So I have to admit I spent several years disliking a program for a bug it didn't have. Only its documentation was lacking in that respect, and still is.

To start opera correctly when it is not running and to send it an URL otherwise, I use this bash-script:
Code: Text [Select]
  1. #!/bin/bash
  2.  
  3. if [ $# -eq 0 ] ; then
  4.     pidof opera >/dev/null && exit 0
  5.     exec opera -noraise
  6. elif [ $# -eq 1 ] ; then
  7.     [[ $1 == http* ]] && URL="$1"
  8.     [[ $1 != http* ]] && URL="http://$1"
  9.  
  10.     pidof opera > /dev/null && exec opera -backgroundpage $URL >/dev/null 2>&1
  11.     exec opera -newpage -noraise $URL >/dev/null 2>&1
  12. fi

The highlighter is incomplete though...


urlwolf

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2008, 04:47:33 AM »
Quote
What is the particular feature? I'd be happy to support a constructive cause, Vive la RevoluciĆ³n!

For a start, the quote button doesn't work anymore in the latest beta :)

Well it's not so much about which feature they didn't implement. It's the utter lack of respect for all the people reporting why (in their educated opinion) opera is not perfect and could be easily improved.

Examples: PGP, copy-paste full clipboard (with formatting: right now it forces plain text!), select text with keyboard, etc.

If they can ignore a thread with hundreds of requests, and not even post a reason why they do it, I call this being just plain rude. They are insulting the user who spend time writing the feature request down.

urlwolf

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2008, 06:53:32 AM »
Not to mention that they won't abandon the 'passe' paradigm of tree-like local bookmarks and embreace tagging/del.icio.us...!
I really miss FF's perfect suplantation of del.icio.us bookmarks instead of crappy local bookmarks.

Opera thinks it can compete with del.icio.us using the Osync feature. What a sorry joke, they completely miss the social part: I might want other people to see my bookmarks, see what my neighbors are bookmarking, etc.

I wonder if people who make decisions like this at Opera are even connected to the web... They often show they have no clue. This is really a dilbert's PHB sotuation (pointy-hair boss with no clue about tech stuff making decisions).

Dirhael

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2008, 07:57:26 AM »
You know "urlwolf", I can understand certain feature requests and I certainly have quite a few of my own but some of the things you are ranting on about (especially the bookmarks thing) is just crazy-talk.
If they were to implement all of what you are asking, the browser I know and love would no longer be Opera but would rather have transformed into something different entirely. Personally, I really dislike the bookmark system/manager from Flock and to a lesser degree, Firefox and would hate to see Opera ruin something that works and works well. Besides, you seem to be missing the point about the "Opera Link" feature from the latest betas. It's not there to compete with del.icio.us, it's there mainly to allow you to sync bookmarks from your desktop browser to Opera on mobile devices.

Finally, complaining about something not working in a beta version is well...to quote their release blog:
Quote
WARNING: These are development snapshots: they contain the latest changes, but they also have severe known issues, including crashes and data loss situations. In fact, they may not work at all.
Registered nurse by day, hobby programmer by night.

housetier

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2008, 08:26:48 AM »
Now that the raising behavior is under control, I'd love to be able to tag my bookmarks.

justice

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2008, 08:32:19 AM »
 :huh: you've always been able to tag your bookmarks? When bookmarking, use the description and add your tags in, then search for them like normal. I just tagged two bookmarks as test1 and they show up instantly. Opera 9.25. Maybe I'm missing something.

housetier

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2008, 09:32:15 AM »
Of course bookmarks show up, storing them is not the issue.

Let me elaborate a little on this. When I bookmark something I want to assign certain tags or keywords to it. Then, when I am looking for a website again, I usually remember "it had something to do with foo or bar" and can browse the bookmarks under this tag.

I can put the bookmark in folder, but that's only allowing for one tag per bookmark, unless I bookmark the same page several times in different folders.

I can also use the description field when bookmarking a page, and search for the keywords when wanting to retrieve it. This might work, but require some getting used to because I don't see the tags I have used before, I cannot browse them. Also I don't get suggestions for already present tags when I start typing them: "f" will suggest "foo" for example.

Third: do you know of a way to always show "Details" when bookmarking a page?

I haven't been using opera for a long time, and during this time I got used to applying tags and being shown suggestions. This is probably the most difficult part: overcoming routine. ...but at the same time I really like my way of handling bookmarks: they are stored and retrieved easily and quickly.

It's not like I am waiting for a chance to say "opera sucks", I am looking for a way to use the internets my way with a browser I don't know very well yet.

Lashiec

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2008, 03:26:13 PM »
Examples: PGP, copy-paste full clipboard (with formatting: right now it forces plain text!), select text with keyboard, etc.

Ah, yes, that's something I really want, though I understand it may conflict with spacial navigation in some ways. More support for tagging (like housetier, I use the same system) would be welcome, there are only so many folders you can create and navigate in a bookmark system, and I think the two systems can be implemented with ease and no conflicts between them.

CodeTRUCKER

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Re: starting a revolt against Opera. Worth it?
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2008, 03:53:04 PM »
...I can also use the description field when bookmarking a page, and search for the keywords when wanting to retrieve it. This might work, but require some getting used to because I don't see the tags I have used before, I cannot browse them. Also I don't get suggestions for already present tags when I start typing them: "f" will suggest "foo" for example.

housetier, I'm not positive it will work in Opera, but I am working on a general file tagging utility that will allow for consistency in applying tags in filename creation.  It may be expandable to other needs, like Opera?  Don't get in a hurry though, I am trying to implement it in AHK and I have never coded in AHK before!. :)