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Last post Author Topic: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?  (Read 62688 times)

mouser

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #100 on: January 04, 2008, 09:35:18 AM »
For quite some time Wordzilla (Anderson) and I have been talking about tag system ideas.  He did such an incredible job with the search stuff that i'm hoping he'll take on the tag system next.

There is no doubt that even if used purely internally, a tag system would be incredibly useful in terms of automating some of the stuff we do now -- like preparing the blog and newsletter.  So for me, it's really a great thing to add no matter how you look at it.

I also think it might be nice in terms of people being able to browse the forum by exploring a tag cloud etc could be fun.  People also might be able to set their rss feed to only give them items from a specfiic tag, etc.

We kind of get the NSFW stuff "free" when we write the tag system.

It seems to me the main questons are:
What is the user interface for displaying tag info and setting tag info and who gets to set tag info?

Let me emphasize this point:  The tag system is *not* being written so that we can have an NSFW filter -- that would be much much too much work for such a tiny tiny issue.

Personally from my perspective there is so little even remotely objectionable content on this forum that the NSFW filtering stuff seems like overkill.  But since it kind of comes almost free with the tag system it may be worth considering doing. 

I agree with some of the above statements that we shouldnt have the filtering on by default or do age checking, etc.  This is more like a manual opt-in tv parental lock.  If for some reason you don't want to see some content on the forum, YOU have to go to your profile and say "hide it from me".

Also, I do not want the forum to get "noisier" -- i dont want tags all over the place and making things harder to read.
the idea of having them per-thread down at bottom of page might be a nice idea.  or the tags could be invisible or only shown when you click a small unobtrusive button somewhere.  Wordzilla is good with this stuff, he'll come up with a nice method :)

f0dder

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #101 on: January 04, 2008, 09:39:28 AM »
We kind of get the NSFW stuff "free" when we write the tag system.

It seems to me the main questons are:
What is the user interface for displaying tag info and setting tag info and who gets to set tag info?

Let me emphasize this point:  The tag system is *not* being written so that we can have an NSFW filter -- that would be much much too much work for such a tiny tiny issue.
Exactly, excatly, exactly!

Personally from my perspective there is so little even remotely objectionable content on this forum that the NSFW filtering stuff seems like overkill.  But since it kind of comes almost free with the tag system it may be worth considering doing. 
Spot on the sugar again.

Also, I do not want the forum to get "noisier" -- i dont want tags all over the place and making things harder to read. the idea of having them per-thread down at bottom of page might be a nice idea.  or the tags could be invisible or only shown when you click a small unobtrusive button somewhere.  Wordzilla is good with this stuff, he'll come up with a nice method :)
Yeah, definitely don't want the tags to show up in the thread overviews (but could have a button there), and when viewing a thread the tags could be shown at top or bottom of the page. Or it could be shown based on user setting etc.
- carpe noctem

Lashiec

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #102 on: January 04, 2008, 10:29:50 AM »
OK, so then we'll let Wordzilla work. Time for a

tranglos

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #103 on: January 04, 2008, 10:52:33 AM »
I am not "LMAO", but I truly expect nosh's prediction to be accurate:
If you set up a special NSFW part of DC, we WILL get loads and loads of it.
So DON'T!!

Quite possible.

While a general tagging system will be useful for browsing, there's also this to consider: once the specific NSFW tag is instituted, what happens when a poster neglects to use it and complaints start pouring in?

What CWuestefeld said: the status quo is precisely the correct balance.



Darwin

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #104 on: January 04, 2008, 11:53:25 AM »
Good point, Chris and tranglos. The downside of any effort to allow people to filter what they do and don't see is that this is going to increase the burden on the moderators because, as I noted, inevitably there will be those who occasionally forget or consistently refuse to tag their own posts for content where appropriate...  :(
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

Darwin

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #105 on: January 04, 2008, 11:56:27 AM »
Ah... that should be Chris and Marek  :D
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

wraith808

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #106 on: January 04, 2008, 11:56:59 AM »
Ok I'd better mention my previous post wasn't meant to be inflammatory, just to point out how seemingly sensible NSFW tags are really a stepping stone to more pervasive censorship... with an attempt at satire thrown in.

CodeTRUCKER, I like that you say this is more an issue of courtesy and consideration but doesn't that go the other way too where the more conservative (for genuine lack of a better word) tolerate the the openness of others.

Sometimes that tolerance isn't a matter of choice.  I come here for breaks when I am at work sites that are very unforgiving.  I choose this as one of the places I take breaks b/c it is safe for general consumption.  If it *is* going to be safe for that, then this needs to be said upfront.  If it isn't, that needs to be stated likewise.  I was on another forum where they specifically said the forum was NSFW, even though such conversations were few and far between. 

Is this to be a family friendly and safe for work site?  Or is it to be relegated to those that you only visit on your own computer when you have time at home?

wraith808

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #107 on: January 04, 2008, 12:11:28 PM »
Wow.  Putting words in my mouth.

I was not defending, simply pointing out that you clicked a link by a known prankster and was surprised at what you found.

How old are you?  Are you not aware that the internet contains things you may not like?

This was pretty much a low blow IMO.  And all of us don't know the attributes of every other person around here.  I wasn't affected by said link, but if I had been (especially if I had been a client's at the time) I would have been more than a little upset.  Blind links to NSFW items are not jokes, they are potentially job/livelihood threatening traps.  Not an opinion in the least- a fact, as it's happened to me before.

wraith808

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #108 on: January 04, 2008, 12:13:40 PM »
It's also about content that may well be relevant to the site. The YouPorn post might well have been an article in an IT magazine, after all. It's a "people meet technology" issue - part computing, part sociology. It seems to me you are asking adults to refrain from discussing certain relevant topics. So what would you like to be done?

If I'm understanding correctly (and correct me if I'm not), it wasn't the article itself, which was very salient to the discussion of technology.  It was the commentary that followed that was a bit blue.

CodeTRUCKER

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #109 on: January 04, 2008, 02:59:13 PM »
First off,  wraith808, Thank you for the perspective on Renegade's joke link.  Yous stated it better than I did.

Quote
Personally from my perspective there is so little even remotely objectionable content on this forum that the NSFW filtering stuff seems like overkill.  But since it kind of comes almost free with the tag system it may be worth considering doing.

This was Mouser's quote and herein lies the crux of the whole thing.  My opinion is there is far too much.  Patience, please give me a moment...

This is Mouser's and a while lot of other peoples "house."  As a result it has a "tone" and a "personality,"  The fact is if Mouser (hypothetically) chose for whatever reason, to make this say, a "Save the 'Fill_in_the_blank'!" site and all involvement must center around promoting awareness, motivating people, lobbying congress, etc.  Further let's say his passion was so intense that he did choose to censor (yes, I used the word) all communication and discussions.  All other discussions than how to address the 'Fill_in_the_blank' issue must be taken elsewhere as time is short and we must concentrate!  Well, if Mouser (hypothetically) did this, what choice would the rest of us have? None, except the same choice you would have as a guest in their home... participate along the established norms or leave.  Those are the only options if harmony is to be expected and the guest has no right to change the arrangement of furniture, etc.  So, what am I saying?  This is Mouser's house and he has chosen a certain level of what is permissible and what is not.  Further, there has been numerous individuals that have found comfortable, spacious rooms in this house and, quite understandably, are a little put out when someone comes along and upsets the balance.  I can see that I have done that and I apologize, but in my defense my motives were good whether anyone chooses to believe it or not. 

I want to say one thing in regard to the jibes at my age and or behavioral expectations.  On Jan. 31, 1995 I saw my born-dead daughter come back to life.  This is not politics.  It is not religion. It is fact!  My friends, after this kind of event happens in your life.  Everything else you ever do, your attitudes, and your views on faith, the world and politics are forever changed.  So as not to try and cram anything down anyone's throat, since that has never been my interest anyway, I will only make available the details to anyone who requests them via PM.  Besides, out of 100,000+ people I can't be the only one who feels this way.  I can't be THAT unique?  There may be some timid souls out there that just didn't have the stomach for this kind of conflict.  They can PM (Private Message) me too and share their views and no need to fear I am not going to try to take over the site with an army of zealots (rofl).  Hope this will now give you a little clearer window into who CodeTRUCKER really is that is in your midst.

The time has come to put this fiasco to rest.  I've been the whipping boy enough and we have had our fun and our say.  This isn't about me anyway it is about the community we hold dear and are obviously willing to face no little conflict to defend it, regardless of which side of the spectrum we're on.  Let's move on and see what Andersen comes up with.  Perhaps he could even use Ralf and myself as Beta advisors.  Now that would be a spectrum, eh? :D  As far as leaving?  I've already stated I've come to love you guys and gals and there really is something special here.  I'm not going anywhere.

tomos

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #110 on: January 04, 2008, 04:12:50 PM »
Let's move on and see what Andersen comes up with.  Perhaps he could even use Ralf and myself as Beta advisors.  Now that would be a spectrum, eh? :D  As far as leaving?  I've already stated I've come to love you guys and gals and there really is something special here.  I'm not going anywhere.

happy to hear :up: CodeTrucker!

PS I dont think you need to apologise in any way for your thoughts/etc

and I wonder has wraith808 found a middle ground :-\
Tom

mouser

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #111 on: January 04, 2008, 04:15:29 PM »
Thank you for that thoughtful post, and I for one am glad you are going to stay around.

Let me say something about this:
Quote
I want to say one thing in regard to the jibes at my age and or behavioral expectations...I've been the whipping boy enough and we have had our fun and our say.

I have found that much of the stress of being "insulted" is within the control of the person who is feeling it.  That is to say, much of the distress that one feels when one perceived themself to be insulted or under attack or made fun of on a forum or website, is due to the nature of the way you choose (or are in the habit of) extrapolating from such insults.  If you read an insult (or 10) and say to yourself: "this person is trying to make a fool of me and everyone is going to laugh" then you're already on a bad path.  Instead say to yourself what's much more likely, which is "eh, no one cares what this guy says about me, and the people i care about know better."  Then it just washes off your back.

One of the greatest "skills" one can learn in an online community is to let go and not feel like you have to answer every attack, have the last word on every thread, win every battle, aor comment on every issue.  When you master that you have reached web2.0 zen state and you'll enjoy yourself more  8)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 04:28:25 PM by mouser »

CodeTRUCKER

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #112 on: January 04, 2008, 04:24:39 PM »
Thank you for that thoughtful post, and I for one am glad you are going to stay around.

Let me say something about this:
Quote
I want to say one thing in regard to the jibes at my age and or behavioral expectations...I've been the whipping boy enough and we have had our fun and our say.

I have found that much of the stress of being "insulted" is within the control of the person who is feeling it.  That is to say, much of the distress that one feels when one perceived themself to be insulted or under attack or made fun of on a forum or website, is due to the nature of the way you choose (or are in the habit of) extrapolating from such insults.  If you read an insult (or 10) and say to yourself: "this person is trying to make a fool of me and everyone is going to laugh" then you're already on a bad path.  Instead say to yourself what's much more likely, which is "eh, no one cares what this guy says about me, and the people i care about no better" and it just washes off your back.

One of the greatest "skills" one can learn in an online community is to let go and not feel like you have to answer every attack, have the last word on every thread, win every battle, aor comment on every issue.  When you master that you have reached web2.0 zen state and you'll enjoy yourself more  8)

Yes, I agree and I am at peace, but my phrase was more in an effort to say "Hey Guys, let's get back to the subject more insults aren't going to help us get to a resolution."  Thanks for the input and again (as always) I appreciate your style of leadership. :Thmbsup:

tinjaw

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #113 on: January 04, 2008, 06:53:08 PM »
I have chosen to self-censor my reply.

This is my fourth attempt at a reply. All my rambling in the previous attempts boil down to 1) Good for you codeTRUCKER for stating your opinion. 2) Good for DC for genuinely accepting codeTRUCKER and his opinion. 3) Good for everybody for looking for a mutually acceptable solution. And then there was the inevitable fourth thing - me taking advantage of this thread as yet another opportunity to act like the class/forum clown and present my reply in a manner to get cheap laughs by using NSFW content throughout.

Why self-censor? Because, in the end, I don't mind doing it for the same reasons I *do* mind censorship.


P.S. Also because my signature in this forum pretty much already states my opinion.

f0dder

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #114 on: January 04, 2008, 06:57:16 PM »
P.S. Also because my signature in this forum pretty much already states my opinion.
Yeah, you're one of those weird religious people :D
- carpe noctem

CodeTRUCKER

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #115 on: January 04, 2008, 07:07:09 PM »
he inevitable fourth thing - me taking advantage of this thread as yet another opportunity to act like the class/forum clown and present my reply in a manner to get cheap laughs by using NSFW content throughout.

Hah! - You're just trying to pad your post count again!*

Like I just did!



Renegade

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #116 on: January 04, 2008, 08:58:49 PM »
HOLY! Talk about a thread post count spinning out of control! SOOOO many posts here! CodeTRUCKER -- You really hit a nerve!


Hi Renegade,

I have noted that you have always been one to say what you thought.? Allow me the same courtesy.

Absosmurfly! :)

One of my biggest disappointments was when after learning of your ingenious musical s/w, I was intrigued by your "Complain about bad software here" link and followed it to see what was offered that I might could use.? I think what you did was not cute, sly or clever.? It was an ambush and it was mean.? I was terribly disappointed, as I have said.? Do I wish to censor your use of innocuous tag lines yes, but only to prevent others from a foul trick.?  Like a lie that is the parasite that feeds off the very truth that it has to depend on to be successful, your posting of such an affront only worked because I had come to trust the integrity of the community.? In short you prostituted the reputation of DC to effect your game.? You are not completely to blame; however, as the leadership was aware of the trap door and, to my knowledge, it has never been addressed.

It certainly isn't meant as some kind of trick or ambush. Perhaps it's a tad understated though... I've changed it from "Complain" to "Rant" and added an NSFW. Might take out the NSFW though... Not sure... "Rant" could equally be "Curse" though, and perhaps that's a bit more accurate.

The purpose of that site is purely for venting frustrations that certainly woudn't be appropriate here.

There is no game there though - it's an honest effort to provide a place to rant without any fear of consequence and without any fear of censorship, etc. etc. etc. It's not commercial either. You'll note that the site has no ads, and similarly for the DNP site as well.

Perhaps you're referring to the tinyurl though -- I used that simply to avoid any profanity here, and not as some sort of deception.

It's certainly not for everyone though.

I'm quite sure my other "fun" site wouldn't be appreciated by a lot of other people as well. (Not Safe At All) Depends on your sense of humor really. If profanity is offensive, then no. If religion is a sensitive area, then most certainly it's horribly offensive. (My mother thinks it's entirely terrible.) nudone did the design, and a few others here found it most humorous. Different strokes I suppose.

Given the amount of profanity in regular movies and TV, I suppose that I'm just entirely desensitized to it. The "F" word for me is really just a new variation on "very" with about the same meaning. Sub into "I'm very hungry." But there is very little profanity here.

I don't think I'm trying to prostitute DC though. If I were out to be malicious, well... I wouldn't ever bother as it's a total waste of time. I'm certainly not mean-spirited, though my sense of humour may be a bit twisted.

e.g. I love South Park and think it's absolutely a brilliant satire without compare. One of my favorite bands is the Dayglo Abortions and they certainly have some of the most shocking/funny lyrics you'd ever hear. (Everytime I hear that song I laugh - it's so completely insane!)

My guess is that some people take things more seriously than others. I tend not to take things very seriously in a lot of contexts.

One thing though CodeTRUCKER, I think that you are a bit out of line when you say, "You are not completely to blame; however, as the leadership was aware of the trap door and, to my knowledge, it has never been addressed." Technology can be a very frustrating thing, and it's not uncommon for people to curse at their computers. I provide an outlet for that, but nobody else is responsible for it other than myself. IF anything, the "blame" should rest entirely on me for posting something that is potentially offensive in a permissive environment (DC). The only "blame" that I can see being assigned to the leadership is in providing a tolerant environment.

However, there actually are some things that I find offensive. Not many, but a few. I don't really get upset by them though. Just as a couple of examples, the "N" word doesn't bother me in the least (it's just a word after all), but when used inside of a malicious context, I find it quite offensive (the intent defines the word -- yes -- I'm subscribing to the Humpty Dumpty philosophy in some ways -- see below). Racism and sexism are completely offensive to me. We have none of that here thankfully.

The other thing that I find offensive (doesn't get me upset though), is personal attacks. Never needed. It's simply a low blow that can be better done by attacking someone's actions or words instead.

Humpty Dumpty Philosophy of Words
  'And only ONE for birthday presents, you know.  There's glory
for you!'

  'I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said.

  Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously.  'Of course you don't--
till I tell you.  I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for
you!"'

  'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice
objected.

  'When _I_ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful
tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor
less.'

  'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you CAN make words mean
so many different things.'

  'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master--
that's all.'


But to kind of get back on track, I have no strong opinions about whatever gets implemented. It's mouser's site and he gets to say what goes. We all get a free ride here, so in his house, we abide by his rules. NSFW tags? If that's the solution, then that's it. Stronger moderation? I'm never in favour of moderation except for extreme cases, but I'll go with the flow.

For posts that refer to pornography... Well... Porn is a big part of the Internet and we're all exposed to it in some way or another. Porn is where the popup originated, and where a lot of innovation and development originates (it was a porn label that first made full DVDs available for purchase and download -- they're leading the online market). While we may not like it, it will always have a place in technology discussions. There's a very big difference between discussing the technology and issues surrounding it and discussing sex. Naturally, when talking about porn there will be some suggestive comments, but I've never seen the topic turn to "I'd hit that" or "so I was with this chick..." type of discussions here. The focus has always been on technology, which I think is entirely appropriate.

Working in IT, porn is something that I'd be negligent if I ignored. They lead the market in many ways, and looking at how they operate is important to know. It's a question of, "how are people using technology?" They happen to come up with some pretty innovative things from time-to-time.

In any event, just my 2 cents.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

tinjaw

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #117 on: January 04, 2008, 09:18:06 PM »
slightly off topic, and to avoid hijacking this thread...
Spoiler
slightly off topic, but relevant as far as "as porn goes, so goes cheap technology" - I am not buying a HDDVD or Blu-ray (or whatever they're caled) DVD player, not because I am afraid one beating out the other in the market, it is because HD and Bue-ray discs are gosh darn expensive! And I know, without a doubt in my mind, that as soon as the porn industry starts selling blue-ray and HD discs, the demand will cause the price to drop 50-75% - the players and the discs. Why do you think bandwidths are what they are today? Joe/Jane consumer wanted to download porn in the privacy of their own home instead of venturing out to the porn store and risk being seen. VHS? ditto. etc.


Renegade

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #118 on: January 04, 2008, 09:29:25 PM »
slightly off topic, and to avoid hijacking this thread...

Not really so off-topic.

Porn drives technology online. Gaming drives hardware technology (video cards especially). There are other factors of course that drive IT developments (server requirements filter down into desktops too), but the point for this thread is that porn is a very real factor in our daily lives with how it drives the market forwards.

Porn was the deciding factor in the Beta vs. VHS war...
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

CodeTRUCKER

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #119 on: January 04, 2008, 09:39:41 PM »
The other thing that I find offensive (doesn't get me upset though), is personal attacks. Never needed. It's simply a low blow that can be better done by attacking someone's actions or words instead.

I appreciate your participation in the thread and your willingness to make an adjustment to your tag link.  I especially like the way you worded what I have quoted above.  In 50 years I've never heard it put that way.  Thanks again.

PS - I still think your GDT is brilliant!

CodeTRUCKER

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #120 on: January 04, 2008, 09:47:02 PM »
Quote
but the point for this thread is that porn is a very real factor in our daily lives with how it drives the market forwards.

Not really.  The point of the thread, at least my intent, was given that the "water" here is a little dirtier than what some folks systems can assimilate, was it possible to do something to make it less troubling on the digestion.  At the end of the day it appears that I'm the only one getting Montezuma's Revenge for the present.  So I gracefully bowed out in deference to the masses.

app103

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #121 on: January 04, 2008, 10:32:24 PM »
I have never been offended by letters of the alphabet, nor am I offended when they are strung together as words. I find no single word offensive.

What I can be offended by is the messages, concepts, and ideas that can be conveyed with words...the big picture.

I have seen and heard some of the most offensive profane garbage said with 'clean language' and some perfectly acceptable messages with lots of 'profanity'.

I personally think if you are offended by the individual words, you might be putting too much focus on them and possibly missing the message (at least in part) that they are meant to express.

___________________________

Now about a tagging system...

I have never really liked tagging systems except in gmail where I tag things in a way that makes sense to ME and nobody else. But I am the only one that will see the tags in my email so it doesn't matter what I call everything.

On the other hand, a public tagging system other than some very simple predefined tags that could occasionally be used but don't have to be used is ok, while expecting me to come up with tags to describe the content of my posts will never work.

I will not use a tagging system like that. I hate using tagging systems like that. I have deleted and relabeled the content on my blog a gazillion times, retagging everything way too many times. I have come to the conclusion that I hate tags, except in rare cases.

If I am going to be required to tag every post a make with a bunch of stuff, either someone will be yelling at me all the time for not doing it or I just won't post any more. (or both)

And do we really need one like that? I happen to think the search on this forum is quite good, now...and I would prefer to use that.

If it is for internal use as mouser described, I don't mind. I just don't want to be forced to classify my thoughts beyond thinking about what section of the forum they should be posted in.

PhilB66

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #122 on: January 04, 2008, 10:48:03 PM »
@Renegade

A preview before the tinyurl link should sort this out (e.g http://preview.tinyurl.com/p7a2v). See http://tinyurl.com/preview.php for details.

Renegade

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #123 on: January 04, 2008, 11:09:47 PM »
@Renegade

A preview before the tinyurl link should sort this out (e.g http://preview.tinyurl.com/p7a2v). See http://tinyurl.com/preview.php for details.

Good point. Done.
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CodeTRUCKER

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Re: What is appropriate content for DonationCoder?
« Reply #124 on: January 04, 2008, 11:18:27 PM »
@Renegade

A preview before the tinyurl link should sort this out (e.g http://preview.tinyurl.com/p7a2v). See http://tinyurl.com/preview.php for details.

Good point. Done.

What's a preview and would it have prevented me (and others) from stumbling into Renegade's "Dark Dungeon?" (just teasing :) ).  Seriously, my concept of a "Preview" is essentially an abbreviated (size or duration) of the real deal.  I don't get how that would help?  I must be missing something.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 11:25:48 PM by CodeTRUCKER »