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What language is the best for a new programmer to start with?
f0dder:
Eww... Microsoftisms... ugly.-SingingBoyo (April 01, 2010, 04:13 PM)
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Oh hai thar, fanboi! :)
Find me an IDE that's better than Visual Studio? (It has a few shortcomings and Eclipse has some points here and there that's more likable - but the whole package, and especially considering the debugger...)
PHP is awesome for websites, but I'll never use it for anything else.-SingingBoyo (April 01, 2010, 04:13 PM)
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Since that's why it's designed for, why would you? Raw PHP is bothersome anyway - too low-level, and not having a running server process is annoying (having to do database persistance or relying on a non-php backend, ick).
SingingBoyo:
Eclipse beats Visual Studio every time... free, open-source, awesome plugin architecture, and dammit, I can actually delete my files completely from Eclipse! I'll admit that VS has some good points, but when you write in so many languages that it doesn't support, you start to hate it. Eclipse is too big for VS to compete any more. Also as soon as a major programming language comes along, or a major update, Eclipse supports it. VS, on the other hand, sticks with the Visual and .NET languages, and isn't portable. I can use Eclipse on any OS, but VS only works on Windows. Portability is far better... what would you do if you had to program in Java, or use a Linux box?
wraith808:
As much as you possibly can, look for cross-platform languages.
-SingingBoyo (April 01, 2010, 04:13 PM)
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Even if you aren't doing (or thinking of doing) anything cross platform? And even if such things adds to the complexity of your learning needlessly? Cross platform is this big mantra... but sometimes, it's just added *stuff* that you don't need...
Eclipse beats Visual Studio every time...
-SingingBoyo (April 01, 2010, 07:56 PM)
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Ummm... what? Eclipse is bloated (which is saying something compared to a Microsoft product), and visual studio only supports Windows and .NET languages because it's Microsoft? Just because something has a focus doesn't make it worse- in fact, at times, it makes it better. And having used both, I can say that I like VS a lot better.
...dammit, I can actually delete my files completely from Eclipse!...
-SingingBoyo (April 01, 2010, 07:56 PM)
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:huh: What does that mean?
SingingBoyo:
Cross platform is this big mantra... but sometimes, it's just added *stuff* that you don't need...
Eclipse beats Visual Studio every time...
-SingingBoyo (April 01, 2010, 07:56 PM)
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Ummm... what? Eclipse is bloated (which is saying something compared to a Microsoft product), and visual studio only supports Windows and .NET languages because it's Microsoft? Just because something has a focus doesn't make it worse- in fact, at times, it makes it better. And having used both, I can say that I like VS a lot better.
...dammit, I can actually delete my files completely from Eclipse!...
-SingingBoyo (April 01, 2010, 07:56 PM)
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-wraith808 (April 01, 2010, 09:15 PM)
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About cross-platform... maybe I'm biased, but really, I think the fact is that writing cross-platform software or OS-independent software just increases your consumer base. I realize things like games can't be done easily in an OS-independent way, (Nor should they need to be... Windows and OS X can take the games, leave the other OS's for developers!) but for things like word-processors, it's definitely beneficial.
Bloated Eclipse may be. Again, I'm probably biased, but I just don't think I could ever do my development in VS. Eclipse is bloated because it supports so much. I just happen to be one of the people who need all the plug-ins it supports.
As for the file thing... Have you ever tried to delete a file off the filesystem from within VS? I could never do it, though they may have changed it since 2003, which was the last version I used. I'd delete it out of the solution only to realize later that it was still on my system. Either that or my memories fuzzy (it was 2005 when I last really used it!)
wraith808:
About cross-platform... maybe I'm biased, but really, I think the fact is that writing cross-platform software or OS-independent software just increases your consumer base. I realize things like games can't be done easily in an OS-independent way, (Nor should they need to be... Windows and OS X can take the games, leave the other OS's for developers!) but for things like word-processors, it's definitely beneficial.
Bloated Eclipse may be. Again, I'm probably biased, but I just don't think I could ever do my development in VS. Eclipse is bloated because it supports so much. I just happen to be one of the people who need all the plug-ins it supports.
As for the file thing... Have you ever tried to delete a file off the filesystem from within VS? I could never do it, though they may have changed it since 2003, which was the last version I used. I'd delete it out of the solution only to realize later that it was still on my system. Either that or my memories fuzzy (it was 2005 when I last really used it!)
-SingingBoyo (April 01, 2010, 11:18 PM)
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As far as the rest of it... you're coming across now as a person with an opinion and who realizes its his opinion rather than the fanboish way that f0dder called you out for in the beginning- and I can respect that. Different approaches suit different developers, and there's nothing wrong with that.
And yes, you can delete from the file system from within VS. There are two separate things- remove from solution, and delete. Remove from solution does just that... and if you don't have VS set to show all files, it can look like you deleted it. But you can delete also.
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