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Author Topic: ... [ARRRRRRRGH!]  (Read 4777 times)

Deof Movestofca

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... [ARRRRRRRGH!]
« on: December 19, 2007, 01:40:09 PM »
I didn't want to hijack the "My Stupid Windows Question" thread at http://www.donationc...f1&topic=11354.0, but I have a similar pet peeve with the ellipses ("...") Microsoft puts after a bunch of menu items (e.g., "Run..." on the start menu).  I've been able to (reg)edit most of them out, but "Run...", "Shut Down...", Log off [current user]..." (on the start menu) and "Search..." on Windows Explorer context menu remain elusive.  Not that it's all that big of an annoyance, but still, if someone knew how to get rid of these (at least to me) pests, it would be much appreciated. :Thmbsup:  If not, well, life goes on.

tinjaw

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Re: ... {ARRRRRRRGH!]
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2007, 01:41:13 PM »
I am curious to know why you wish to remove them. I assume you understand they do serve a purpose and are not just randomly spread here and there.

Nighted

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Re: ... [ARRRRRRRGH!]
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2007, 03:55:22 PM »
I don't use them. I remove them from my install disc.
I`m a firm believer in the philosophy of a ruling class, especially since I rule.

Deof Movestofca

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Re: ... [ARRRRRRRGH!]
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2007, 06:06:03 PM »
I am curious to know why you wish to remove them.
Aesthetics, mainly.  Sort of like removing the "My" from the various "My [Documents, Photos, Pictures, etc.]" subfolders under the assorted user profiles in Documents and Settings.  I simply think the menu items look better without them.

I assume you understand they do serve a purpose and are not just randomly spread here and there.
If there's a purpose to them, I'm completely missing it.  Note that I only want to remove the ellipses (and have done so with several menu items such as changing "Search..." in the start menu to "Search" without noticing any ill effects to my system) not the entire menu item itself. 

Lashiec

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Re: ... [ARRRRRRRGH!]
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2007, 06:59:10 PM »
Ellipsis are used in Windows to indicate the user when a button leads to another dialog, instead of actually performing an action, so it's pretty useful to remind you when you can initiate an action that can't be undone, that is, it gives you one more try. Of course, some programmers ignore this, but it does not happen too often.

EDIT: Some rephrasing
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 10:44:34 AM by Lashiec »

jgpaiva

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Re: ... [ARRRRRRRGH!]
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2007, 10:41:23 AM »
Actually, the ellipses make a lot of sense. They represent the undo-point. If the menu you're opening has ellipses, you know that you'll have a way to get back with that action and don't have to decide now if you want to do it (thus you can get more information about the action before deciding to run it).
If the ellipses weren't on the "shut down..." button, people would think that that button would shut the computer down right away and not press it, and then they wouldn't be able to find the "restart" button, which is inside that menu. (this refers to someone who doesn't know the system, of course)

lanux128

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Re: ... [ARRRRRRRGH!]
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2007, 11:38:02 AM »
it's a UI design convention - resistance is futile.. [repeat to fade] :)

An ellipsis (...) at the end of a menu item indicates that an application needs additional user input to execute the item's command. An ellipsis indicates that the application will display a dialog box before executing the command. However, not all menu items that open additional windows should have an ellipsis. For example, the About item in a Help menu should not end in an ellipsis.

btw, couldn't find a Microsoft source..

Deof Movestofca

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Re: ... [ARRRRRRRGH!]
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2007, 02:51:16 PM »
If the ellipses weren't on the "shut down..." button, people would think that that button would shut the computer down right away and not press it, and then they wouldn't be able to find the "restart" button, which is inside that menu. (this refers to someone who doesn't know the system, of course)
While this makes some sense, one would think that anyone who would know the system well enough to know what the ellipses were for would have already figured out that there was a "Restart" option on the "Shutdown..." dialog and how to use it.  On top of that, it seems that such information isn't common, public knowledge (I certainly didn't know about it until now) considering that lanux128 couldn't find a MS source for the rationale and had to use one from Sun that I doubt many non-programmers have read.  So unless I'm misunderstanding something, they added a "feature" (for lack of a better word) to help people who didn't know enough about the system, but then refrained from telling those people who the feature was supposed to help that it was there.  I hope this doesn't sound like I'm faulting your explanation (which I thought you did quite well, btw), rather I don't fully comprehend the logic behind the rationale for adding such a poorly documented "feature".  I suppose it's one of those "it seemed to be a good idea at the time" and "well, that's the way we've always done it, so why change?" things.

Anyway, getting back to the original intention of this post, if there's anyone who knows, or is willing to figure out, how to remove them, I would be grateful if he or she would share such knowledge with me.  I'm fully willing to take full responsibility for any consequences that arise from my use of such information.;)

Lashiec

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Re: ... [ARRRRRRRGH!]
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2007, 02:56:11 PM »
First result on Google. And they said Microsoft didn't have a set of UI guidelines like Apple...

I think it's a great idea, even if you're a seasoned user or programmer, once you get a new program, and you start testing it, it's reassuring to know what actions mean another step (thus giving you the option to go back) and which ones are not.

f0dder

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Re: ... [ARRRRRRRGH!]
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2007, 03:44:16 PM »
I like the ellipses, just like I like the Alt+Letter underlines. They both serve a purpose, and I can't understand people who find them un-aesthetic.

If you want to remove the ellipsis, you'll end up modifying at least a bunch of .exe resources, and for some apps you'd have to touch regular data and even code as well, since menu items can be constructed dynamically. Good luck ;)
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housetier

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Re: ... [ARRRRRRRGH!]
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2007, 05:12:26 PM »
I wonder if it's possible to replace this one widget. I mean most applications make use of the standard windows widget set, which, I guess, is uhm stored in a .dll. Now if someone were to re-implement it and install it in such a way windows would find it...

I don't know if it can be done easily. I am sure it is possible with an uncertain amount of hackery.

f0dder

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Re: ... [ARRRRRRRGH!]
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2007, 06:25:18 PM »
The ellipsis(...) isn't a "widget" - it's simply a piece of text, and it's up to each and every individual developer whether (s)he wants to add it to a menu item, button (etc.) or not.

But I guess you could catch a fair amount by globally hooking SetWindowTextW() and replacing all occurrences of "..." with "".
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Deof Movestofca

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Re: ... [ARRRRRRRGH!]
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2007, 12:23:35 PM »
First result on Google.
Never said there wasn't a MS source, rather it was lanux128 who said that he (or she) "couldn't find [one]".  Second, like the Sun article, I doubt it's one that many non-programmers have read.
I think it's a great idea....
And that's fine and dandy by me.  I don't and on my system, I would like to remove them.  What other people do with their system is up to them.
I like the ellipses, just like I like the Alt+Letter underlines. They both serve a purpose, and I can't understand people who find them un-aesthetic.
I like the Alt+underline too, since I prefer to use keyboard shortcuts over the mouse and therefore find it useful sometimes to be reminded of what they are.  At the same time, I can understand there's different strokes for different folks (hey, maybe that would go well in a theme for a TV show...:)).  Just because I like something doesn't mean everyone else has to like it, and just because I don't like something doesn't mean other people can't like it.
If you want to remove the ellipsis, you'll end up modifying at least a bunch of .exe resources, and for some apps you'd have to touch regular data and even code as well, since menu items can be constructed dynamically.
Actually, I was mainly interested in just removing them from the Windows shell components (such as the start menu and the context menu) since I use it daily and thus notice them there most often.  I hadn't considered that maybe some of the ellipses might actually be part of an application since those that I have been able to remove I did so through editing the registry.