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Last post Author Topic: Shut Up About Vista, Already  (Read 17470 times)

Ralf Maximus

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Shut Up About Vista, Already
« on: November 29, 2007, 09:49:50 PM »
Found this HappyJoyJoy article about Vista on CyberNet, culminating with the suggestion that we should all quit whining about it.

http://cybernetnews....7/11/27/vista-sucks/

SuckySucky.jpg

You know my opinion of Vista by now, and I'm sure you have one too.  Whether you love Vista or think it's the new WindowsME doesn't matter; everyone has their own expectations and experiences, which is as it should be.  In other words, you are perfectly correct to love or loathe Vista in whatever fashion suits you.

I hold this article up, however, as a piece of propaganda.  Here's the core bit:

Smarm.jpg

Got that?  Because people complained about XP when it came out, that invalidates the complaints about Vista now.  That's a little like getting mugged at the airport, and when it happens again people just roll their eyes and say, "there he goes getting mugged at the airport again; quit whining about it."

Ignoring the fact that even their examples are flawed (Vista's been out for 13+ months; business adoption rates for Vista are tanking; most Bird Flu victims are Vista users) the conclusion is jaw-dropping, especially for a technology web site.  Generally speaking, if customers are complaining, there's something wrong.

Finally, the two linked articles at the end are choice reads also.  One's a link to a happy Vista-using magazine editor who debunks the myth that Vista has slow bootup/shutdown times.  His methodology? He tweaks the test machines to remove functionality, in one case unplugging a USB drive.  See, because the drive had a FAT partition on it, it slowed down the boot.  What?  WHAT? Isn't that kind of normal to have multiple partitions on a drive?  Isn't that a FEATURE?  Good god, what would Vista do if there was a Linux partition on that drive?  Explode?

Oh, and here's another Knowledge Knugget: your browser boots faster if you uninstall the plug-ins.

See?  It's not Vista causing the problem... it's all this crap you people keep installing on it!  Vista'd be just fine if you'd leave it alone.  Leave poor Vista alone, you animals!  *sob*

By stripping down his machine so it boots in 90 seconds he proved anyone bashing Vista is an idiot.  And Vista users: you can even make money by selling those useless USB drives on eBay!

Look... I know Vista's not one of the signs of the Apocalypse.  Microsoft will get its act together and fix things and by this time next year workstations will be faster so we won't notice what a bloated sweaty pig Vista is, and eventually all the teeth gnashing will die down.

Just as it did with XP. 

But dammit, *I* will be the one to decide when I am satisfied, and I reserve the right to cast disdain on products that do not meet my expectations.  Ignoring the problem, drinking the Kool Aid, and giggling over how pretty Vista is will not make things better.

mouser

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2007, 09:52:23 PM »
I have to admit to having a kind of opposite view of the cybernet defense of vista.

My view is, i don't like vista -- but i hate to see people piling on too much and i don't think it's fair to keep beating a dead horse or jump on the bandwagon..  So i find some real comfort in the cybernet news people standing up for it.  Call me strange but i think it's sweet.

justice

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2007, 03:44:00 AM »
It will be too easy to reply with another I don't like vista reply, even if it's perfectly correct it will not spawn an interesting discussion. So let me just comment that because of 7 years of the OS (5 years since xp and 2 years of compatibility) not really changing people now have come to expect that whatever they have lying around or bought will work with 'Windows'. Same goes for software really, any app out there was compatible.

However this is not the case anymore but computers are now even more of a commodity then 7 years ago. These two combined results in massive problems for people adapting vista. An uphill struggle really. Microsoft has a fantastic reputation with regards to backwards compatibility, but in this different environment decisions taken in the past are now imperfect for todays hardware / software. So in my opinion they've had the choice between being fast but breaking everything, becoming a slow and bloated compatible  system or creating a new market so the two oses don't compete.

justice

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2007, 03:46:32 AM »
Wonder what would happen if they'd made two editions: Vista Fast and Vista Compatible. Or installed Vista Fast & an optional compatibility pack. I can see how this requires an insane amount of work seperating all the compatibility code though.

I also disagree about XP being small and fast though. A modern pc shouldn't take much longer to boot up a 5 year old OS than my TV does.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 03:48:03 AM by justice »

MrCrispy

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2007, 04:20:42 AM »
People have lower standards nowdays. We expect less from our fellow members in society, our teachers, our government and are willing to accept more and more mediocrity, infringement of our rights, and are not supposed to judge others or have any expectations beyond the minimal because its not politically correct, is discriminatory, whatever.

Why should we expect anything different from our software. I see this trend across all facets of human endeavour - technology in areas such as cars, computing, consumer gadgets, political discourse, philosophy, morals and ethics in society. More and more it seems we are willing to settle for less.

Ok, I'm feeling extremely cynical, had a crappy week at work, can't sleep and am browsing geek msg boards at 2am so I'm not exactly contributing to the betterment of the human race and am probably not making too much sense.

But I truly do believe that a lot of great ideas, by the time they come to fruition, are a pale shadow of what their visionaries intended. Call it pandering to the lowest common denominator,  dumbed down, getting distorted by marketing and management, its all the same.

True excellence is rare and even more rarely recognized and appreciated by the masses and mass media. Its easier to survive by not standing out and taking a risk, whether you are a software corporation trying to appease a customer base of billions of corporate clients who abhor change (like Microsoft has to do with each Windows release) or trying to go through airport security.

zridling

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2007, 05:28:00 AM »
[Ralf]: Look... I know Vista's not one of the signs of the Apocalypse.  Microsoft will get its act together and fix things and by this time next year workstations will be faster so we won't notice what a bloated sweaty pig Vista is, and eventually all the teeth gnashing will die down.... Just as it did with XP.... But dammit, *I* will be the one to decide when I am satisfied, and I reserve the right to cast disdain on products that do not meet my expectations.  Ignoring the problem, drinking the Kool Aid, and giggling over how pretty Vista is will not make things better.
________________________________________________
What Ralf said.

The linked author is Ed Bott, who emailed me about my comments regarding his post, Five secrets to faster Vista starts. Essentially, you're asked to disable significant parts of your machine or OS in order to make Vista run faster. That's not an acceptable solution. I've installed Vista on a variety of machines and the fastest boot time I've achieved is 1m 11s, after a fresh install and no AV software.

Like Ralf, if I want to bitch about something I will until my gills bleed. But I think we're going to have to wait until Windows 7 to get over Vista. Look how slowly Microsoft has worked on SP3 for XP... why? Simply put, after five years in development and raised expectations, the one word that defines Vista for me is disappointing.

cmpm

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2007, 11:52:27 AM »
The only real advantage of Vista I could find documented was it's better use of memory. Which means it uses all the memory(supposedly) so as to take advantage of it, rather then having it set there doing nothing.

This could account for some slow booting up.

And it's suggested to have at least 2 gigs of mem if not 6 or 8.
So more money.
Personally I wouldn't try to upgrade what I have but just get a Vista system new. If I wanted it.
Much more money!..lol...

My xp takes a while to boot fully too, with all that I have starting with it.

Personally I can do with xp what I want to do computer wise.

Heck I don't use most of it's potential anyway.

As far as that article is concerned, yes xp sucked when it first came out until service pack 2. imho Though it was better then 98, but win2000 is still a good system.

I'm in no hurry to get the latest and greatest. I prefer the proven and reliable.

Carol Haynes

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2007, 12:11:23 PM »
Quote
And it's suggested to have at least 2 gigs of mem if not 6 or 8.

6 or 8 only if you are using the 64 bit version - the 32bit version is still capped at 4Gb (less mapped memory from video cards etc. - so effectively about 3 and a bit Gb cap)

Lashiec

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2007, 02:45:52 PM »
I think Ryan's criticism is more directed to tech journalism and blogging, who, frankly, are getting quite tiresome with the Vista bashing. We know it has problems, we know XP is better, but stop carrying in your frontpage another horror story that happened in Vista Avenue. It's not only Ryan, but other people over the Internet are angry about this, it's as if overnight, tech sites turned into forums visited by angsty teenagers and complete jerks. Of course, they know that this creates traffic, so it would not stop in some time (case in point: the exo.blog, which is getting more coverage in the news that it should).

Besides that, what gets me even angrier is the total ignorance on part of these people. Not only they contradict themselves constantly, but they don't conduct a single bit of research, opting for spreading of misinformation regarding everything. DRM, Vista inflated piece, OS bugs... And writing shitty articles which get everything wrong. Maybe sports journalists are now writing tech news?

Vista is worse than expected? Yes, of course. Does it have problems? Surely. But, for the love of God, stop pestering me every day rehashing the same old stories again and again, proving that you don't have anything valuable to report in your site. Nothing worthful is going to come out of all this, and people will get Vista or XP despite what you say about them. One thing is chronicling your experience with Vista, which is fine, and a different one is beating a dead horse, turning a site into your soapbox only because you're angry with this OS or the other.

Edvard

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2007, 03:19:43 PM »
OK, this will be my first and last post about Vista, anytime, anywhere.
I sought the opinion of a disinterested 3rd party in the form of a website which would tell me, impartially, how much something sucks.

Quote
HowItSucks.com rates products based on recent reviews from other users. The rating system is simple: the longer the red bar, the more it sucks.


Ok, I type in the obvious...
vistasucks.jpg
and get some results...
vistaresults.jpg

Point taken. I'll shut up now.
Or maybe I'll go with Home Premium. Apparently it sucks less.


from Weird Daily
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 03:22:27 PM by Edvard »

cmpm

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2007, 09:46:01 PM »
Quite correct Carol Haynes, having the optimal hardware has always been an issue with any operating system. For it to perform to one's specific needs.

Curt

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2007, 06:45:51 AM »
To my poor understanding Vista is totally fantastic. Only problem is, it was made for tomorrow's computers. So if I try to install it on my old shitty snailhardware Vista will seem to fail. But it is not Vista failing, it is my hardware that is failing. Vista is at least 5 years or so ahead of its' time. And in five years from now, Vista wil have been improved so much that we all will say it is The Best, and the successor will stink...

Carol Haynes

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2007, 09:53:47 AM »
But Curt the question everyone is asking is "Why do we have to have hardware fives years ahead of its time to run an Operating System?"

OK if you want to do video editing or professional image editing or publishing or a host of other applications you want software that can utilise every ounce of hardware you have. Operating systems are supposed to provide an envirnoment that allows applications to run to the best of their ability - not hog all the resources to themselves and make everything else struggle!

Curt

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2007, 11:35:25 AM »
... "Why do we have to have hardware fives years ahead of its time to run an Operating System?" ...

You are of course right, Carol. But then again: The dream about "today's" OS, now being Vista, was dreamed in the previous century - so MAYBE Bill Gates over-estimated the pace in which hardware would keep improving?

Carol Haynes

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2007, 11:44:40 AM »
Nah - its like all versions of Windows - each one has consumed more power and hardware than the last to basically do the same functions.

The problem is the interminable layers of crap that get placed on top of each version from generation to generation:

  • partly for backwards compatability,
  • partly as 'features' no one with half a brain actually wants or needs built into the OS (like UAC, Aero and DRM), and
  • partly because they keep adding ever more demanding apps on top of the OS and then trying to convince the powers that be that they are integral functions of the OS (like Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player) but are actually anticompetitive attempts to stuff rival products.

Curt

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2007, 12:12:08 PM »
Yes, I know what you mean, they always take one step forward and two steps backward. Aero is great, of course, -and in a few years from now it may be illegal to own a computer without DRM - but at the same time they both stink anyway. I don't think we are heading for better times. But in the meanwhile it may improve the quality of our daily life if we manage to look at the bright side of life... Or are you by accident wearing your little daughter's shoes today? Sorry, Carol, I didn't mean to offend or hurt you. But in Denmark it has been raining all day long - so I guess it must have been raining on the western side of the channel as well.

Edited for grammar.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2007, 12:15:24 PM by Curt »

Carol Haynes

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2007, 03:17:42 PM »
Yep - it's been pouring (lashing is a better word) rain and hale all day with gale force winds - actually I like bad weather makes me feel all cosy curled up by my fire! I'd better go and check my sailing dinghy is OK though - last time we had gales it broke its trolly and rattled across the concrete!

Personally I do feel quite positive - I think DRM will disappear in the next few years (now who's an optimist?). The record companies want to sell their music via download serices (there are already a number of mainstream non-DRM services and even ultra conservative classical music lables such as EMI and DG have launched non-DRM services for downloading MP3 music - in fact DG only sell MP3s encoded at 320 bits because they only want near CD quality releases). The backlash from purchasers against companies who maintain DRM only downloads will drive them to rethink (IMHO) and the same will go for video content. Ultimately DRM doesn't work and the media industry is beginning to recognise that and act.

The next step will be users persuading MS and other similar companies that schemes such as Genuine Advantage simply alienate customers (MS seem to be doing a good job of this already). MS are doing a pretty good job of this already with Vista activation restrictions - sooner or later they will get wise when market share starts to suffer.

Anyway back to the deluge (and House series 3 which I just got on DVD!)

Darwin

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2007, 05:23:25 PM »
Spectacular snow storm here - it's REALLY beautiful... We're getting used to snow again on mid-Vancouver Island after it being pretty much completely absent for years (though this is the second year in a row that November has ended with a MAJOR dumping of the stuff - exciting, cars in ditches, people without power, etc. etc.).
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cranioscopical

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2007, 06:36:33 PM »
We're getting used to snow again on mid-Vancouver Island.
I recall a winter visit to Vancouver some years back. A snowfall created amazing confusion.
Took this from my window yesterday evening, in southern Ontario. Might have to plough the place before too long  :'(
Spoiler
Sno.jpg


I'm not saying anything about you-know-which O/S, just to nod at the topic.

Darwin

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2007, 06:49:03 PM »
I don't know, Chris, I thought that was a lovely vista!
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

cranioscopical

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2007, 07:33:22 PM »
I thought that was a lovely vista!
Nice one!
(It was taken from windows.)

Curt

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2007, 02:12:43 AM »
...  His methodology? He tweaks the test machines to remove functionality, ...

Here is a link to a really fine instruction by TexHex on how to make Vista faster by using this strange methode. The article is far too long to show here, so you will have to follow the link.: http://texhex.blogsp...ant-hd-activity.html

TexHex.gif

Carol Haynes

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2007, 03:54:09 AM »
We're getting used to snow again on mid-Vancouver Island.
I recall a winter visit to Vancouver some years back. A snowfall created amazing confusion.
Took this from my window yesterday evening, in southern Ontario. Might have to plough the place before too long  :'(
I'm not saying anything about you-know-which O/S, just to nod at the topic.

Yeah - my mum was complaining on the phone about heavy snow falls in Bracebridge (she hates the snow with a vengence). Where are you based in S. Ontario? I will be coming over some time next year - maybe we should organise a DC get together in Ontario !

zridling

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2007, 07:05:47 AM »
Curt, thank you for the article link! That constant grinding and indexing of my HDs — even though I have all indexing turned off and all index associations unchecked — is maddening! All I needed instead was to uncheck the 'Users' folder. Hell, I thought my HD was going to burn up from that crap.

nontroppo

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Re: Shut Up About Vista, Already
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2007, 08:28:41 AM »
About that article - you need to pay more $$$ to get Vista with shadow copy et al., but I've read somewhere that the services are enabled on all Vista versions, is this true? If so, how does that benefit basic/home users, and make the extra disk activity worth it?
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