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How do you tag (or even organize) your files?
vixay:
Sorry for the delayed response, but it took a while to read the other links. Anyway the Spotlight approach sounds cool, though since i haven't used a mac interface regularly enough i don't get the concepts.
As for Armando, what AHK scripts do you use?
I think the whole issue comes down to, how can we use our computers to be more intelligent and do things for us, rather than have us do things for the computer (so that it makes it easier for us later).
So a database would be a good idea, as long as it was seamless, and didn't have me pulling out my hair! :)
A lot of these document controls do exist, but at a great cost of learning curve, and performance hit. Anyway lets see...
Armando:
Nontroppo : thanks.
I’m abit in a hurry, but here are some thoughts…
First…I love QuickSilver...** The tagging possibilities you're showing are nice. They seem similar (in features only, must I emphasize...) to what I've seen from the new explorer/Desktop Search in Vista — meaning : more intelligent usage of metadata, and better integration. But Quicksilver seems to make the integration more fluid and useable. Can't compare right now though.
How much is that metadata portable though ? Is it strictly reserved to OSX and would be lost if read by windows or Linux? My experience with metadata fields for files is that they’re not that reliable and/or portable.
The new Tag2find is supposed to offer some kind of integration in explorer and other desktop search tools and launchers like farr (via some specific APIs) too. So, those with XP might be able to soon have a better system to tag files (with tag clouds, statistics, etc.). Still, all these solutions (including the one provided with QuickSilver / MacOSX ) leave me with the same feeling of "insecurity": how permanent is that metadata, that tagging, how portable is it, how robust is it?
Tagging stuff is as time consuming as naming files or classifying them in folders. If all that work is going to be lost by changing between Oss or just backing up, etc., it's not a perfect solution. Tag2Find is supposed to provide some solutions to keep trace of all tags in the the advent of data transfert… we’ll see.
(Nontroppo : in another you talked about the proprietary format of tag2find’s databas. Would you say the OS X format is not proprietary?)
If you look at my points in my first post, you'll see why I decided to include everything in file names -- maybe not very sexy and elegant solution, I’ll admit, but the only one I'm sure will pass the portability test relatively well. If I switched to Linux Or Mac OS tomorrow I’d be able to use my system as if it was native.
vixay : calling my script a script is actually probably a bit too much :D. I’m mostly using AHKs text replacement capabilities.
Here are some examples :
--- ---; COURS PRÉPARATION(s)
:oc:xcp-::xCP-.Mnz ou Nom, Prénom.(Dte)__Nom du projet - Titre, Nom du cours, code etc__"PLUS"TGS sujet organisme compagnie etc"PLUS"{home}{right}{right}{right}{right}{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}+{right}
--- ---; Assign Ctrl-shift-Alt-R as a hotkey to restart the script
^+!r::Reload
; Assign Ctrl-shift-Alt-R as a hotkey to restart the script
^!e::Edit
--- ---; Revue Éparts (ancien : pjREVÉPA)
:oc:ppreép::tgsPReÉp
:oc:Preép::tgsPÉtRe tgsPunié tgsPdoct tgsPReÉp (tgsPat tgsPthée)
:oc:preép::tgsPÉtRe tgsPunié tgsPdoct tgsPReÉp
; PERFORMATIVITÉ-EFFETS-PRÉSENCE
:oc:pppep::tgsPPEP
:oc:ppep::tgsPÉtRe tgsPunié tgsPdoct tgsPThDo tgsPat tgsPthée tgsPPEP
:oc:Ppep::tgsPÉtRe tgsPunié tgsPdoct tgsPPEP
I think the whole issue comes down to, how can we use our computers to be more intelligent and do things for us, rather than have us do things for the computer (so that it makes it easier for us later).
--- End quote ---
I always try of course to have my computer do things for me, of course… whether or not I succeed is another story.
So a database would be a good idea, as long as it was seamless, and didn't have me pulling out my hair!
--- End quote ---
I personally find problems with traditional databases. Especially when it comes to backup and portability (e.g. : it can be very annoying/infesable to have to backup a 50gb file every night). There might be ways I completely ignore, but from what I’ve seen…
AskSam, Ultra Recall, myBase, General knowledge Base, treepad, and others more PIMed, like Info Select etc., it’s pretty much always the same story.
**Spoiler... even if I genuinely do prefer Farr (go mouser go!!! ;D)... e.g. Farr has better file manipulation-browsing possibilities, the result view is more detailed, it'S very customizable, and it searches without an index by default -- a must for someone like me who messes with folders and files all the time.
QuickSilver also has some advantages (some are user friendliness, sheer beauty, speed, and great plugins) but none that I miss with farr. I won't go into a detailed comparaison of farr and quicksilver as it'S been months since my last intense quicksilver usage. But it could be fun if you'd do one! You seem like the perfect person for that.
nontroppo:
How much is that metadata portable though ? Is it strictly reserved to OSX and would be lost if read by windows or Linux? My experience with metadata fields for files is that they’re not that reliable and/or portable.
--- End quote ---
Well, the metadata system is based on the filesystem (FS), HFS+. Each FS has a different way to handle metadata. HFS+ uses resource forks, which are like NTFS alternate data streams IIUC. So if I copy a file to Windows, it will most likely lose the metadata because the FSs are incompatible.
BUT, it is quite easy to handle for Spotlight. There are OS command-line tools that extract this metadata out. It would be trivial I assume to set up a folder action to extract the comments and write them to an XML file. So I could have an drag-n-drop "upload" folder, who's job it is to automagically upload a file(s) to a remote FTP and extract the comments to XML as a sidecar file.
Tagging stuff is as time consuming as naming files or classifying them in folders. If all that work is going to be lost by changing between Oss or just backing up, etc.
--- End quote ---
Most command-line utilities, and good backup software is fully compatible with HFS+ features. Backup is not an issue.
Nontroppo : in another you talked about the proprietary format of tag2find’s databas. Would you say the OS X format is not proprietary?
--- End quote ---
It is part of the standard core OS filesystem. OS X has exposed APIs to deal with it, and those are easily used by any application developer or scripter. So it is non-proprietry within-OS X. The problem is obviously platform incompatibilities, which is something we'll be stuck with for a while unfortunately (a unified file system for all OSs would rock, but I suspect they'd squabble for 200years before arriving at a decision!). My XML sidecar file is the best I can come up with, but then Windows software would need to be able to translate that to whatever it uses. I have no idea what tag2find uses. Their FAQ provides no information about where they store their data, but as you say they are writing an API. I'd still prefer that this is built in to the OS personally, but I don't know when Microsoft will get round to implementing this (their next-generation file OS was supposed to come after XP but got pulled IIRC). I don't know how Linux handles metadata either...
Armando:
Thanks nontroppo! Very informative comments.
The problem is obviously platform incompatibilities, which is something we'll be stuck with for a while unfortunately (a unified file system for all OSs would rock, but I suspect they'd squabble for 200years before arriving at a decision!). My XML sidecar file is the best I can come up with, but then Windows software would need to be able to translate that to whatever it uses.-nontroppo (October 22, 2007, 06:37 PM)
--- End quote ---
Like I said, this is really why I’ve decided to stick with file names. Of course, I’d prefer another solution… if it’s as portable and robust.
I have no idea what tag2find uses. Their FAQ provides no information about where they store their data, but as you say they are writing an API. I'd still prefer that this is built in to the OS personally, but I don't know when Microsoft will get round to implementing this (their next-generation file OS was supposed to come after XP but got pulled IIRC). I don't know how Linux handles metadata either...
-nontroppo (October 22, 2007, 06:37 PM)
--- End quote ---
I actually asked them a while back, and this is what they answered :
At the moment, to prevent you from losing your hard work, we provide one basic backup possibility: export to a plain text XML file. The schema of the XML is very basic simple and will for sure prevent you from a "vendor lock in", which we understand nobody really wants. The backup has some downsides at the moment, as the files are stored with absolute path, but it will always allow recovery in case of a disaster, maybe requiring a little bit tweaking with a text editor in case the location of files has changed.
We do not really make a very big secret out of how our tags are stored: at the moment they are stored in two locations: a system-wide tag-database (SQLite) and attached as Alternate Data Stream to the file itself (which is the reason why we can only support NTFS at the moment). Tags can be recovered from backup or the NTFS Alternate Data Stream in case the central database corrupts (which is highly unlikely). Alternate Data Streams are copied together with a file by Windows Explorer, as long as the target volume supports them.-martin – tag2find team on June 19 2007 -- http://forum.tag2find.com/ftopic85.html
--- End quote ---
I suspect that the system is now (or will be) even more robust and should integrate with explorer (API’s for Launchy or other Launcher should also soon be available). So… we’ll see.
In terms of OS, OS X seems like the one with the best support for meta data. Linux (Ubuntu, PCLinuxOS…) is getting there to. The biggest problem, like we said, is interoperability, compatibility, portability…
nontroppo:
The biggest problem, like we said, is interoperability, compatibility, portability…
--- End quote ---
Aye indeed, what I'd give to lock MS, Apple, and *nix engineers up together in a room for a week and actually think about inter-OS operability. :Thmbsup:
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