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Author Topic: The worst thing about Macs  (Read 28346 times)
nontroppo
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« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2007, 06:06:59 AM »

Quote
By the way, my Macbook is the best Laptop I've owned (IBM Thinkpad, Dell, and Acer being the previous competition), and it isn't because I'm some middle-class lobotomised zombie with heavy pockets...
Grin
Well actually, maybe I am?  Wink

However, if we could learn to recognize when it becomes overactive and apply the brakes... that would be a very good thing indeed.

And Macs suck.

Brilliant! You should do standup Wink

The odd thing is, this discrimination ability we share is part of what makes us so creative and successful.  The ability to note differences and act upon them in our environment goes to the core of our existence.  We are, literally, wired in our DNA to play the "one of these things is not like the other" game better than any other creature we know of.  To deny it is silly. 

I absolutely agree. I often inflame people by suggesting all humans are innately racist (neutrally) from the very start of their cognitive development. The problem is recognising the stereotypes we make to bring order to a chaotic high dimensional world and being able to understand when they hinder our ability to interact with the world.

And computer OSs suck!  tongue

Who said 'arrogant' I certainly didn't. ... though I would argue that many make the choice based on outdated knowledge of the effectiveness of alternative operating systems).

So you are inferring they are arrogant as they are unable to realise their decision to use Mac is not based in fact when they think it is.

By the way OSX is a repackaged BSD OS - OK they have added a few bits and pieces here and there and changed the look and feel.

The microkernal is a very small part of the large frameworks that makes OS X; the majority of *any* OS rests in the APIs and large frameworks (carbon and coacoa in OS X which is NeXT derived not BSD *at all*!) which make up its environment. This is where OS X has some advantages, and which is perhaps why apps like Quicksilver or Scrivener seem to effortlessly appear on OS X when excellent windows programmers working hard don't get as close to that functionality. Look I really can't be bothered to get into an API pissing contest with you — it was *not* the purpose of my post — but I want to emphasise you criticise tribe X of being ignorant of Windows (your opinion of professional Mac users) then *you* do exactly the same (ignorance of OS X) - please just reflect on that a bit...

what I'm trying to say in my very roundabout manner is -
relax a bit, nontroppo

<adopt lotus position>ok</adopt lotus position>  tongue

But you know, one can be passionate *and* relaxed…
« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 06:10:22 AM by nontroppo » Logged

Carol Haynes
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« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2007, 06:28:28 AM »

Quote
Quote from: Carol Haynes on Today at 09:01:42
Quote
Who said 'arrogant' I certainly didn't. ... though I would argue that many make the choice based on outdated knowledge of the effectiveness of alternative operating systems).

So you are inferring they are arrogant as they are unable to realise their decision to use Mac is not based in fact when they think it is.

Did you actually read what I said - I said the opposite. It is true that many professionals (particularly in the design and media world) use Macs because they perceive them best for the job. They are very good at doing the job and I have no problem with professionals making that choice.

From my experience of talking to some of them it is obvious however that they base some of their decision on an outdated view of what Windows is capable of and how it has changed over the years. In the early years (back in the 80s) Windows was truly hopeless at design and media tasks but now Windows will run practically all of the software they require (in identical versions) just as effectively as a Mac - but at a fraction of the hardware cost and with greater flexibility and choice in additional hardware and software. If they don't want cost savings, choice and flexibility that is up to them - I have no gripe whatsoever if they want to stick with Macs at all.

Outside that somewhat esoteric professional environment I can't really see what motivates people to use Macs ????

I am not an apologist for Windows and I do think it has some serious issues (along with Linux) but I think on balance the Windows/Linux platform delivers much more of a bang for your buck than the average Mac setup and Windows offers a hugely greater flexibility in software and hardware choice.

Enough said - I guess we aren't going to agree on this - which pretty much illustrates the point that peoples' opinions generally divide on this issue and everyone ends up in a particular camp.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 06:31:05 AM by Carol Haynes » Logged

nontroppo
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« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2007, 06:52:16 AM »

Enough said - I guess we aren't going to agree on this

To reiterate, I'm not even talking about OSs - I talking about humans making sterotypical and potentially facile assumptions about other tribes, especially when the assumption is that they are making facile assumptions about your tribe...  Wink

Look, why not base your assumptions on mutual respect? Instead of "I can't understand why tribe X eats dirt" — "I'm sure there must be some reason I don't understand why they do". That is the distinction between "difference" and "denigration"...

[edit:typo corrected]
« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 07:43:43 AM by nontroppo » Logged

Carol Haynes
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« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2007, 07:39:50 AM »

Last comments ...

How is it an invalid comment or a xenophobic comment to say "I don't know why people eat caviar?". There are lots of people out there who like caviar - personally I find it a grotesque and unpleasant food and I think pretentious people who like to show off buy eating something that is so disgusting are stupid.

It is exactly the same issue with Macs as far as i am concerned - I am saying "I don't understand why people will pay out premium prices for Mac computers". I did say if they have a need or a good reason to choose a Mac then that is up to them but at least the decision should be made from an informed base.

We all have opinions about all sorts of things - my personal opinion is that anyone who buys a Mac without a very specific reason (such as professional graphic design use) has more money than sense, I would say the same thing about people who buy expensive cars or go on ridiculously expensive holidays! It's not discrimination to think somebody has made a stupid decision - it is an opinion and I am entitled to my opinion. It doesn't mean I won't give my friend with a Mac a hug next time I see her or spend my life telling her she is stupid !!!

By definition anyone who buys a Mac belongs to the set of people who have bought Macs - I can't make a comment about Mac users without referring to that set of people. This thread started with an article about Mac zealots and I think it is reasonable to say what you think about any kind of zealotry - which is usually based on bigotry.

By the way I think you mean "denigration" - not that I wish to denigrate you.  Grin

Now that's me out of this discussion.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 07:41:29 AM by Carol Haynes » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2007, 08:14:24 AM »

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There are lots of people out there who like caviar - personally I find it a grotesque and unpleasant food

Know what you mean.  I got talked into trying Marmite once.   smiley
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« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2007, 08:36:59 AM »

+1 for using "grotesque" in post.
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Carol Haynes
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« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2007, 08:49:58 AM »

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There are lots of people out there who like caviar - personally I find it a grotesque and unpleasant food

Know what you mean.  I got talked into trying Marmite once.   smiley

LOL - I share a house with someone is passionately in love with Marmite - I have to leave the room just from the smell!
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nontroppo
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« Reply #57 on: October 19, 2007, 09:07:20 AM »

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it is an opinion and I am entitled to my opinion

We are indeed free to our opinions (though the Political landscape may make that less tenable in the near future ohmy ), but it appears to me part of your opinion is based on outmoded and incomplete information (as you amply showed by thinking OS X is just BSD+minor bits, that the desktop appeal is only because of iPhoto), which was the same critique you made of professionals who ignored Windows and chose Macs... Pot, kettle.

We *can* all agree that marmite is grotesque though...  smiley
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« Reply #58 on: October 19, 2007, 12:09:30 PM »

All I can say to add to this is I know two techs who are big time Macbook fans, but both of them got the Intel chip Macbook so they can run WinXP on it.  Moreover, one of the two (the *slightly* less technical, I might add, oddly enough) is running his XP through VMWare Fusion.  I don't know about the other guy, he may be, but I haven't talked to him since before Fusion came out.  I know what you are thinking, but you are wrong - he went to Law School and isn't around anymore.  I don't talk to him because I have issues with Lawyers !! tongue

Anyway, both of them are very PC literate irrespective of OS!  The only other Mac users I know of are my Uncle (used to do a ton of desktop publishing) and his sons (all 5 of them).  My Uncle used PC's at work before he retired and hated them because his Mac was so much easier to use to accomplish his work.  Now he uses it because it is familiar, comfortable, and does everything he wants and needs.  No more, no less.

My cousins, similarly all work in the computer entertainment industry - computer animation, photo touch-ups, computer art; artists each and every one.  For them, it is a similar situation:  They learned in school how to use the tools on these machines and they are comfortable with it.  They have them at home because they use them at work, and even if they changed to Windows platforms, they would stick with Mac because it is what they like - period.

Am I the only person who doesn't know any fanatical Mac fanboy flame attractors?  It appears so, at least of the people who know mac users.

To nontroppo - I understand your points and take your meanings, but I don't know that you are following the meanings of others posting.  Maybe I am wrong...

To Carol - nontroppo has a point.  When was the last time you priced Macs?  Maybe it is very different in the UK, but worldwide (in general) Mac has realized this point and lowered costs dramatically!  They are no worse than a high end quality machine as far as I have seen.  Still higher than you might want to pay, but hardly three times the price for half the power.  Also, as Mac-centric developers have moved to the Windows platform with their products, MANY Windows products have moved to support Macs due to the significant user base they can quickly and easily tap (compared to developing a new product).  Lastly, they are very upgradeable - easily as upgradeable as any laptop.  Well, maybe not the desktops, I have never worked with them, but the laptops are.

Lastly to all - I have thought heavily of getting a Macbook simply because it looks good - very good comparatively - but as time marches on, I also have seen that hardware is becoming more and more of a commodity in general.  If you get something new, might as well make it look good, because no matter what you get you will be able to run current OS's (well most OS's anyway).  Instead of an OS, however, I am waiting for the Hypervisor so I can run all OS's through a VM machine.  That is my 4 cents, since it is way to long for 2 cents Grin
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« Reply #59 on: October 19, 2007, 01:15:36 PM »

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To nontroppo - I understand your points and take your meanings, but I don't know that you are following the meanings of others posting.  Maybe I am wrong...

No I'm not following nicely along am I :devil: My point is that this thread started not over Mac vs. PC (debate ad nauseum), but about Mac fanatics. We had replies from people ribbing those fanatics (no problems there), but also a substantial generalisation of dumb stereotypes to *most* Mac owners. I'm not here to follow along with those silly strawmen stereotypes, nor try to argue about which OS framework is better; merely that just because fanatics suck, it doesn't have to make one a bigot. Can't anyone see the irony in that?  Wink
« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 01:17:51 PM by nontroppo » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2007, 01:43:26 PM »

Fair comments, steeladept. I only want to comment on the pricing issue - from my perspective, Macs HAVE come down substantially in price. However, while you can get a Mac notebook for about the price of a middle of the range Windows based notebook, they are not in the same league for feature set (though they do ooze quality - I love the look and feel of them, but no more so than a good Toshiba or HP notebook), you get half the RAM and less than half the harddrive capacity. You also don't tend to get discrete video graphics at that price point. My point? Welll... perhaps there isn't one, really, other than to point out that while 3 times the price for half the spec might be a bit off in NA, I don't think it is unreasonable to argue that you get less hardware for your money. Now, having said that, one has only to look at Sony's offerings to realise that this kind of premium pricing is not restricted to Apple!
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« Reply #61 on: October 19, 2007, 02:11:22 PM »

I don't know from personal experience but, according to Consumer Reports, one thing you get from Apple for that money is consistently outstanding customer support.  That appears not to be true with Sony.
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Carol Haynes
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« Reply #62 on: October 19, 2007, 04:17:52 PM »

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To Carol - nontroppo has a point.  When was the last time you priced Macs?  Maybe it is very different in the UK, but worldwide (in general) Mac has realized this point and lowered costs dramatically!  They are no worse than a high end quality machine as far as I have seen.  Still higher than you might want to pay, but hardly three times the price for half the power.  Also, as Mac-centric developers have moved to the Windows platform with their products, MANY Windows products have moved to support Macs due to the significant user base they can quickly and easily tap (compared to developing a new product).  Lastly, they are very upgradeable - easily as upgradeable as any laptop.  Well, maybe not the desktops, I have never worked with them, but the laptops are.

Actually about 10 days ago ... my friend was trying convince me that a Macbook was the only viable solution for her ex-husband's first computer (he wants to use the internet, send emails, do a little word processing and possibly store photos).

I was comparing prices of Macbooks and Windows laptops. In the UK the cheapest Macbook was three times the price of some of the Vista systems  I looked at (¬£700 for a 13" screen compared to some Vista systems I found for ¬£240 with 15" screens) - and the Vista systems had more memory, larger hard discs and bigger screens . They had similar spec dual core Intel CPUs, and the Vista systems weren't a generic make - IIRC they were Toshiba.
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« Reply #63 on: October 19, 2007, 09:19:06 PM »

...Now, having said that, one has only to look at Sony's offerings to realise that this kind of premium pricing is not restricted to Apple!

AMEN to that!!! Thmbsup

Actually about 10 days ago ... my friend was trying convince me that a Macbook was the only viable solution for her ex-husband's first computer (he wants to use the internet, send emails, do a little word processing and possibly store photos).

I was comparing prices of Macbooks and Windows laptops. In the UK the cheapest Macbook was three times the price of some of the Vista systems  I looked at (¬£700 for a 13" screen compared to some Vista systems I found for ¬£240 with 15" screens) - and the Vista systems had more memory, larger hard discs and bigger screens . They had similar spec dual core Intel CPUs, and the Vista systems weren't a generic make - IIRC they were Toshiba.

Well you will always find someone who refuses to listen to reason (A Macbook is not the only solution that fits those requirements as you point out), but that doesn't mean it ISN'T a viable option...I know, you never said it wasn't, but you imply that the price point makes it "Not Viable" which isn't true.  It is just a costly option.  Now as to your costs as listed - like I said, I didn't know what the price structures were in the UK.  I guess I will avoid Macs at all costs there (pun intended  cheesy ).
« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 09:27:21 PM by steeladept » Logged
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« Reply #64 on: October 19, 2007, 10:11:41 PM »

Oh god don't remind me about Sony laptops. I'll never buy one again (well the one I have was bought for me by my parents earlier this year). At least not until they

a) stop putting stickers everywhere (ugh)
b) stop shortchanging, it says it has bluetooth support, but then I find out that you have to buy this Sony module lol. I just bought some 15 dollar bluetooth USB stick that works just as well.

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« Reply #65 on: October 20, 2007, 01:28:18 AM »

Wow - got a lot going on here since I've had time to post...

The zealotry thing will never go away. There are zealots everywhere, but I think that we can mostly agree that it is the zealotry that pisses us off, and not the object of the zealotry. We all know that the Mac/OSX (object) has more zealots than the PC (object).

The same goes for Firefox in a reduced manner. My Firefox, Internet Explorer, Opera rant is here. Just like the Mac zealots, the Firefox zealots drive me nuts.

I certainly don't mind hard facts that can be clearly illustrated. Blind statements with little support are annoying.

Ok - Let me jump off at this point and become a zealot for anti-zealotry. Wink

*** CAUTION - ZEALOTRY TO FOLLOW!!! ***

Whether it's an OS, a browser, or a particular piece of software, or a religion, or a political party or whatever... The object (tool) serves a purpose/function. An OS lets you run software. A browser lets you surf the web. A religion lets you communicate with g/God. A political party lets you decide how you get butt-pirated... Etc.

Inside of any of those functions there are specific things that need to be done. Different tools will perform different tasks with varying degrees of effectiveness or efficiency or style. How efficiency, effectiveness, style or *insert property/function here* ranks inside of a priority list varies by individual.

If you want to encode audio/video, Joe Blow encoder may suffice, but if you're doing it for DVD production, you're going to use something from a company like Sonic or Avid, otherwise you're an idiot - plain and simple. The priority for DVD production isn't encoder price or ease - it's quality all the way, and there are only so many products that will satisfy that requirement. Conversely, if you're making a home made DVD that you're giving as a present to your friend for their birthday and buy a $100,000 system to do it, you're also an idiot. Nobody goes rabbit hunting with nuclear missiles.

Choosing a tool for a job will depend on those priorities. Choosing the wrong tool given a set of priorities is simply a mistake. e.g. You don't use MS Excel to create documents. You don't use MS Word for spreadsheets. You don't use Photoshop for an image viewer.

It is ONLY when a task and tool are VERY simple that you can definitively say, "X is superior to Y." I have a swiss army knife, a kitchen knife, and a sword. Simple tools. I need to cut some carrots. Simple task. For that task, the kitchen knife is clearly the superior tool. Period. No debate.

Web surfing... So many things to do there... So many complex tasks... So many different aspects to it... Not a simple thing. IE vs. FF. vs. Opera vs. Netscape vs. Safari vs. *insert browser here*... There is no clear winner. There is ONLY what I prioritize as important. (As in the link to my rant above.)

I value mouse gestures for navigation very highly as I use them all the time. I value speed. I use Opera primarily. It's not a "right" or "wrong" decision - it is what it is. I'm close to switching back to IE for some reasons that I outline briefly here. If mouse gestures aren't important to you, then that just doesn't make sense for you.

Imposing one's priorities on another is most often insane. A graphic designer needs Photoshop. But when the graphic designer forces *computer illiterate friend* to use Photoshop to resize photos to print out and put on the fridge, that's just stupid.

A similar thing goes on with the Mac zealots. They berate others for having different priorities or making a different choice.

I'm hungry. I think I'll have a pear. Does it make me an idiot because I didn't choose *insert favorite food here*?

The zealots are begging for the rest of us to make fun of their insanity. I don't think anyone needs to apologize for berating zealots for that. They're asking for it.

On the other side, it is hypocritical to berate the object of the zealotry because of the zealots. That doesn't make sense. However, we still do this. I think its more often in jest or as "bait" for the zealots - just to piss them off and lure them into being the funny extremists that we love to make fun of. It's really kind of cruel. It's not very rational. But then again, the rational thing to do when you're dealing with someone that isn't rational is to become irrational yourself. (Yes - ironically strange but true, that is the best argumentation tactic.)

The problem I see is when you actuall mean something or believe something when you become irrational with the zealots. I'm all for making fun of Macs or whatever else - heck - it's all just a fun game. The zealots aren't going to sway me, but I can get some twisted fun out of the whole thing. It is in some ways rather perverse as there is nothing to be gained.

The defining characteristic is irrationality - it's just hard to pass up stomping on it. cheesy

Oh heck... I'm just rambling on and on... Time to shut up.

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« Reply #66 on: October 20, 2007, 05:49:32 AM »

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We all know that the Mac/OSX (object) has more zealots than the PC (object).

Huh? Have you done a statistical analysis comparing population size with fanaticism? Or is it just because as a PC user, Mac fanatics stick out more. Going to browsers, I've seen:

"Opera is OK, but it has so many more fanatics than Firefox"
"Opera is great, and there are less fanatics than Firefox"
"I hate Firefox fanatics, thats why I use IE"
"IE zealots are the most numerous of all"

Amazingly, it is the "other" sides fanatics that tend to stick out to them.

Quote
n the UK the cheapest Macbook was three times the price of some of the Vista systems  I looked at (¬£700 for a 13" screen compared to some Vista systems I found for ¬£240 with 15" screens

You are comparing apples with oranges and coming to the conclusion that oranges are more zesty. *I* bought a cheap laptop before my Macbook, an Acer Aspire 1520, and it was plenty fast (same spec as Thinkpad twice its price). But boy, can you tell a difference in build between it and my older IBM Thinkpad or the Macbook (flaky not only in physical build, but hardware reliability). If you need a laptop at a bargain bin price, go for the £300 pound one. But don't claim they are "identical".

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« Reply #67 on: October 20, 2007, 07:18:18 AM »

Huh? Have you done a statistical analysis comparing population size with fanaticism? Or is it just because as a PC user, Mac fanatics stick out more.
I don't think so, nontroppo.
Following the example of the people in my classes (about 200, all studying computer science on a pretty good university), i can give you a good example:
When someone says something bad or a joke about the wintel plataform, either there are no comments, there is agreement or there is laughter.
EVERY SINGLE TIME someone says something like that about the mac platform, there are at least 2 guys either saying the person saying that is wrong OR that a similar thing happens in the wintel platform.
This is a statistic from 4 years of dealing with this kind of stuff every day.
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« Reply #68 on: October 20, 2007, 07:55:36 AM »

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Nobody goes rabbit hunting with nuclear missiles.

Love it - that should be quote of the day somewhere!

Quote
You are comparing apples with oranges and coming to the conclusion that oranges are more zesty. *I* bought a cheap laptop before my Macbook, an Acer Aspire 1520, and it was plenty fast (same spec as Thinkpad twice its price). But boy, can you tell a difference in build between it and my older IBM Thinkpad or the Macbook (flaky not only in physical build, but hardware reliability). If you need a laptop at a bargain bin price, go for the £300 pound one. But don't claim they are "identical".

I take your point - but for the purposes required the cheap machine will be just as good and functional - and if they want to do more in the future they will have more choices. In fact I would say that the PC version would be better for the target audience - and man in his 70s with eyesight on the wane as a 15" monitor is going to give a larger and clearer image.

Having said that if I spend the same amount of money on a MacBook and a Windows based laptop where will I get 'better bang for buck'. The UK Apple Store uses this phrase and it is simply not true in any sense.
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« Reply #69 on: October 20, 2007, 10:19:36 AM »

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and man in his 70s with eyesight on the wane as a 15" monitor is going to give a larger and clearer image.

The accessibility features of OS X are clearly more unified than in XP at least (no idea about Vista). The whole system works with Voiceover (voice assistance) for all widgets of all applications, there are pre-bound key commands for screen zoom and contrast inversion (also accessible for the mouse driver natively). For auditory loss, system alerts can provide visual clues, and mouse and keyboard assistance is provided. On windows, this is scattered about (some in control panel (in different places), some in Utilities in start menu) and you normally need to augment with a set of specialised software to deal with voice assistance as well as Tiger does.

Quote
The UK Apple Store uses this phrase and it is simply not true in any sense.

If you do photography work it is, because the Tiger kernel handles memory better than windows (and has done for the last few years), enabling those with large memory configurations to do things windows chokes on. My work desktop machine is a 4GB Dual processor Xeon Dell workstation (£3800 when new). Even with the 3GB switch in boot.ini Photoshop fails to handle large files opened in Tiger with ease! CS3 works slower on XP and Vista than Tiger. I get more bang for the buck here. Amazingly, I prefer to work on my Macbook which has 1/2 the memory than my Dell Workstation.

If you are a writer, the OS provides a native system wide service of dictionary and thesaurus elegantly available to all native apps. No need to have each app with a different dictionary, or download plethora of add-ons (which I did in Windows, some of them good). It is a little thing, but it is there and it works. *And* if you are a writer, the software on Mac is really amazing (Scrivener being my  Kiss favourite). I've sampled everything on PC desperately, but I've yet to find anything of the same quality. Windows abounds with apps with buttons everywhere, 10 different toolbars, scattered feature sets. As a writer, I get more bang for the buck, my writing has even improved, because the tools I have are better for the job.

Having spotlight as a system-wide service means my file manager, my launcher, my writing software, my note-taker, my disk monitor can all simply hook into *one* service. Yes I can download google desktop (or app of choice) on PC, then some other app, but it just doesn't all seamlessly gel together. My windows file-manager can't use it. Neither can my writing software. etc.

If you value typography, Tiger has native support for OpenType, allowing ligatures, alternative figure sets, and better contextual kerning in ****all*** apps, not just the $4000 DTP software that has to emulate this stuff in Windows. I am amazed that OS X's notepad can handle proper ligatures when 99% of software on windows cannot. This is core architecture that windows simply fails to provide (even though they co-developed OpenType years ago!). If you value a beautifully laid out book, imagine having the core mechanics of typographical elegance (read Robert Bringhurt's "The Elements of Typographical style and weep) available in the foundations of your OS.

All native apps expose a consistent scripting interface as a core part of the OS, allowing any scripting bridge (ruby, python, PHP, applescript etc.) to easily interact with them. I can use system-wide dictionaries of manipulations to automate most apps and tie them together with less hassle than the (excellent home-grown) automation hacks available for windows. You may get to the same destination, but one is elegantly (I'm currently using Ruby to automate music tagging, and system maintenance), and the other is with blue-tack and string.

Did anyone mention Quicksilver? There is a love of this app amongst its users which is very well founded. It is a great example how the more unified underlying architecture of the OS frameworks (exposed scripting interfaces, OS services) allows an app to greatly leap ahead of anything available on any other platform. It is revolutionary in interface terms in ways that other platforms are still moving forwards to emulate. Mouser is an amazing developer, really brilliant, and FARR is the best goddamn launcher on windows. It is why I first came to DC, and I use FARR when using Windows. My belief is that the OS frameworks which unify OS X, allowing the noun+verb+action paradigm to work effortlessly is just a pure struggle under the Win32 API. No matter how brilliant mouser is, doing ambitious stuff bringing together services between lots of apps is a fight in Windows. Not even the commercial Quicksilver clones (Enso and company), with fancy screen-casts come close to it. I would argue that this is a clear example where a user gets more bang-for-the-buck because the underlying architecture is just more cohesive.

I also have to put up with crap music players (ah, how I miss foobar2000), and Matlab on OS X is flaky (GUI work == hell). Wireshark is X11 based and more buggy than Windows or Linux. But the free-ware and shareware community is vibrant and there are lots of great stuff to play with (we are all geeks after all). I love dabbling with *nix, while still having Adobe Lightroom ( Kiss ), Illustrator and other pro apps available (and working better than they do in Windows). Thanks to *nix, I *love* that the OS is cleanly separated from apps, cleanly separated from user data. No more registry cleaning, system32 folder examination, services cleaning. OS X doesn't get sluggish after time like Windows has always done, causing the yearly reformat of C:\  [EDIT: system updates don't require annoying restarts like Windows does]

I've helped edit whole short films in FCP running on a standard Macbook, something I was unable to do on my previous Acer.

Apple sucks. Their locking down of music platforms while publicly deriding DRM is hypocrisy of the highest order (though they haven't added DRM crap into the kernel as Microsoft have done). There is a stinking high pile of marketing crap (though I see that as endemic to Western Capitalism, how can a Vacuum cleaner make your life so much fulfilled!?). All the Jobs keynote stuff is just back-patting masturbation by executives tring to peddle their stock value. I would never buy an iPod or iPhone (until they are unlocked) as they give me no value.

And yet I cannot blithely dismiss my current platform as being no better ***IMO*** than what I've used for the previous 12 years. I have less lock-ups, slowdowns, un-reproducible shutdown freezes, less registry tweaking, less spyware battling. I have software which I couldn't find in Windows (and I can run XP in a VM when I need it, intermingling apps as if they were the same OS), while still benefiting from core unique OS X services which I value. More bang for the buck? For me, it clearly is.

And mac, PC, & Peruvian tree-shrew zealots suck! :-P
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 10:57:24 AM by nontroppo » Logged

nontroppo
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« Reply #70 on: October 20, 2007, 10:46:00 AM »

And as a little background:

I didn't choose to buy a Macbook. My previous Acer was having Windows lockup issues that a fresh disk image was not clearly solving. My boss was curious about Macs because for Education, workstations are better specced, better built and lower priced than the Dell's we normally buy. So he took me, the most computer-literate and real Windows specialist in my Department, and offered to buy me a new laptop. The caveat was *I* was a guinea pig, the laptop would be a Mac. So when I took up the laptop, I was really an experiment to see if we could do our scientific analysis, writing and collaboration with this alien platform. I didn't *choose* it at all  deal. My first two weeks were with very mixed feelings — WTF is that menu-bar doing there all the time, why don't apps close when you close their windows, why have hide AND minimise, WTH doesn't enter work in dialogs click the default button. I missed foobar and hated iTunes with a passion. I *really* missed FARR  Sad, and thought the dock clunky. I *was* amazed when I saw ligatures in my text, found expose genuinely useful and loved how things "flow". But bootcamp and XP saw substantial use still. Maybe I'm just more flexible, but soon things got more intuitive, my Windows-metaphors were less intrusive, and then fairly rapidly things clicked into place. There are sets of small details in OS X that just kept me amazed; little details that showed some designer 1000s miles away had thought about how this was built. Then I started really using quicksilver. I spent more and more time in OS X, not deliberately, it just happened. The macbook was running all our legacy software with no problems. After discussing this, the first Mac Pro was bought.

After a month or so, the senior London Dell representative came and tried to persuade us to buy a new batch of workstations. Apart from being pretty ignorant about computers, he was amazed watching the Mac Pro running XP and OS X unified. he promised us a further 40% in addition to the educational price, which did undercut Apple. After some more cogitation, and Dells attempt to back-peddle on price slightly, more Mac Pros were purchased. We haven't looked back since.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 11:30:40 AM by nontroppo » Logged

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« Reply #71 on: October 20, 2007, 11:05:34 AM »

Nontroppo, thank you for documenting your experiences.  It's the most *useful* thing I've read on the subject, and I thank you for helping me form a new perspective.  I find myself wanting to experiment with a Mac for the first time.
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« Reply #72 on: October 20, 2007, 11:28:04 AM »

Yes - I agree with Ralf's comment above. Very interesting to read how you entered the Mac world, nontroppo. Thank you for sharing that.

PS I'm an avowed Peruvian tree-shrew FANATIC! Please don't get me started on their all-round superiority to the garden variety wild Southeast Asian species! I mean, who wants to travel all the way to Southeast Asia to watch these mouse sized lesser primates in the natural environments? Puh-leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze! It's a zoo in Peru all the way for me  tongue
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« Reply #73 on: October 20, 2007, 11:33:29 AM »

Ralf: as long as it doesn't detract from your future as a successful thoughtful satirist and comedian of World reknown  Cool

Darwin: bah! We know very well Peruvian tree-shrews are no more than Uruguayan street-rats wearing lipstick…  harhar
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« Reply #74 on: October 20, 2007, 11:56:44 AM »

Quote
Darwin: bah! We know very well Peruvian tree-shrews are no more than Uruguayan street-rats wearing lipstick‚Ķ 

Cross-dressing rats! I love it!

« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 11:58:29 AM by Darwin » Logged

"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin
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