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Last post Author Topic: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!  (Read 11572 times)

Lashiec

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Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« on: October 04, 2007, 09:41:45 AM »
Surprising news that I had to share it with you guys. Read the announcement and its details :o

Capture-2.jpgMicrosoft providing .NET Framework source code!

Well, basically they're releasing the fully commented code of a good number of libraries, and they'll do the same with some others later. Looking at the license I'd say (don't flame me ;)) that looks like a nod for the Mono developers, but most probably my reasoning is wrong. They're also bringing integration of this effort with the debugger in the future Visual Studio 2008 (take a look to see what the integration is all about), but people in the comments don't seem to give a damn about it ;D

via Ars Technica Open Forum
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 01:16:00 PM by Lashiec »

mwb1100

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2007, 10:46:57 AM »
MS did something similar with .NET 1.0 - the difference being that for 1.0 the source they released was not exactly what they created the released version of the .NET binaries with, it was more a 'reference implementation'.  This time it appears they are releasing the source for the actual .NET binaries.

In reference to the GPL thread that's going on elsewhere, note that the license for the .NET source is a 'look-but-don't-touch' license.

Lashiec

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2007, 05:51:02 PM »
Uh, my guesses had been debunked fast by none other than Miguel de Icaza :-[

Renegade

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2007, 07:21:16 PM »
I heard about it on the Hanselminutes podcast. Sounds good.

I'll try not to rant, but I don't think I really agree with Miguel that it's not "open source". The source is there. You get to see it. The locks are off and you get to see it. That seems open to me. Microsoft Reference License? Still seems open. You don't get to change it or anything, but it's still open enough to see. Open is open.

The whole "what is open source" thing just ticks me off. It seems like there needs to be a real, honest, and true blanket definition for 'open source' that is permissive enough to allow anything that is 'opened up'.

Beyond that some set of sub-categories would make sense. e.g. Just to blow hot air out my butt - open source: proprietary reference (as above), open source: proprietary mutable (e.g. commercial software that doesn't permit reselling but permits changing), open source: restricted free mutable (GPL), open source: free mutable (BSD), etc. Just something that makes more sense and isn't some kind of religious radicalism like the FSF.

Never-the-less, it's great to see MS opening up .NET. It will certainly make some things easier in those wierd situations where things go awry and you just can't figure out where/why.

Kudos to MS for this. It's a huge step.

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mwb1100

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2007, 11:00:00 PM »
but I don't think I really agree with Miguel that it's not "open source".

One concern that Miguel has is that it's not appropriate to incorporate the MS code into Mono (Miguel's project) because the MS code is not open source 'enough'.  Hence his warning for anyone who might contribute to Mono to avoid studying the MS code - that course of action avoids tainting the Mono code base.

Renegade

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2007, 11:49:25 PM »
but I don't think I really agree with Miguel that it's not "open source".

One concern that Miguel has is that it's not appropriate to incorporate the MS code into Mono (Miguel's project) because the MS code is not open source 'enough'.  Hence his warning for anyone who might contribute to Mono to avoid studying the MS code - that course of action avoids tainting the Mono code base.


A very valid concern - thanks for pointing that out.
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mouser

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2007, 01:01:43 AM »
The day that it becomes clear that the .net runtime and languages are going to be fully supported as cross-platform development tools, in a dependable and first-class fashion, is the day when i will seriously consider using .net, and not until then.  Mono is very impressive but i'm just not going to invest my time and have microsoft flirting with the idea of cross-platform support but behind the scenes working to keep it crippled.

There are a ton of things i like about .net and especially C#, but the next major language switch i make is going to be to a truly platform neutral language/runtime system.  If MS isn't careful then .net is going to get surpassed by a similar project which isn't so wedded to one platform (windows).

Renegade

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2007, 07:28:17 PM »
mouser,

I think that you're going to be pleasantly suprised in the near future.

.NET really is what Java wanted to be. Java is still 'write once, break anywhere'. .NET isn't at the point where it will 'break anywhere', but Mono is bringing it closer! :)

Ok - silliness aside, we've seen quite a few major shifts in the MS attitude towards being more open and supporting various open source initiatives. e.g. DNN, Mono, etc.

The problem is that people fundamentally don't understand Microsoft and their attitude. MS has traditionally been hostile to OS/FOSS/whatever, and is still against GPL licensing. There's a very good reason for it though. Microsoft was built on the backs of third party developers that created software for their platform. Offering for Windows flourished where other platforms were more or less barren.

But why would others develop for Windows? Money. Pure & simple. They can make a living doing it. Or at least beer money in any event. Microsoft's best interests are served by helping it's third party developers make money. The GPL sinks this, and so it's understandable that MS wouldn't cozy up to it. BSD licensing on the other hand makes sense. It enables a profit model. MS now has quite a few licenses that steer in this direction, e.g. MSPL, etc.

The markets and technologies are getting to the point now that it makes sense for MS to open up more than in the past. .NET is clearly the way of the future in how it works.

The CLS is open for anyone to come up with an implementation (CLI/CLR/.NET). Only Novell has stepped up to the plate in a serious manner. Well, there is Portable.NET, but how far along are they? Mono seems to be the only serious contender.

MS is in no fear of having .NET being usurped for the moment. Looking at the various tools available:

Eclipse with BlackSun, etc.
Mono Develop
XDevelop ($500.00)

And comparing them to Visual Studio? There's no comparison. VS is light years ahead of all of them.

While a small developer may choose an alternative to VS due to cost, for a company that needs to be productive, VS is the only option available. The alternatives might be ok for compiling or whatever, but productivity in VS is just leagues above anything at the moment.

Businesses are and will be the main focus for a long time. .NET was never marketed to small developers when it came out - MS only targetted enterprises and government. .NET is now feasible for small developers and becoming more and more attractive all the time.

I think Mono is going to be the major force there in pushing .NET (or the CLS) forward for cross-platform development. There really isn't much else. RealBASIC. ANSI C. Java. A few others. But nothing is really coming close to the very rich set of tools that you get with .NET.

Time will tell of course, but with 2 billion dollars of initial investment from MS in the CLS, and all they are pouring into .NET, there's no way MS will ever let .NET fail. Right now they need to address the cross-platform issue and the open source issue in order to remain relevant and expand. It's only good business for them to embrace what's going on right now. And this time, it's not the MS 'embrace and extend' going on, it's MS embracing, and others on the outside 'extending'.

Quote
If MS isn't careful then .net is going to get surpassed by a similar project which isn't so wedded to one platform (windows).

Another way to look at it is that there is absolutely nothing out there other than the CLS that remotely addresses the issue. Java? Well... Not quite. It's very fragmented. What flavour of Java?

So who's going to drop $2 billion to come up with something relevant? I don't see anyone other than Novell stepping up to the plate there.

This is a good thing for Novell because Netware has really lost its relevance. Novell needs something to keep it in the game in the future. They're moving towards Linux now, but they'll need more than 'just another Linux distro' to do it.

Anyways, let's hope for the best. Better and faster development tools are always a good thing. :)

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mouser

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2007, 10:33:31 PM »
Like i said, there is a ton i like about .net, C#, and MS development tools.  I consider myself pretty neutral in the open source debates -- i love the idea and spirit behind open source, but i have been burned so many times with half-finished open source tools that show no sign of having developers willing to fix the unfun-to-work-on-issues that i have grown to fully expect it now. 

(In my ideal world all source code would be "open" but developers would get enough funding to support them while they work on the non-fun but necessary stuff and would be free from others taking their code and profiting from their work -- but that's a side issue and a pipe dream).

Anyway -- nothing would please me more than hearing some announcement some day that MS fully blesses and supports the Mono project and is committed to seeing 100% cross-platform compatibility of all .net features in a timely fashion so that everything written for .net would be fully portable on win/mac/linux/etc.  I don't pretend to understand the business issues that would be involved.

I'm just saying that as much as I may like a lot of .net, i'm not going to be embracing it until i know it's a viable long-term cross platform solution. My primary development platform would in all likelyhood stay on Windows, but I don't think single-platform languages are a good idea and i don't want to go down that path again.

Renegade

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2007, 06:41:32 PM »
Like i said, there is a ton i like about .net, C#, and MS development tools.  I consider myself pretty neutral in the open source debates -- i love the idea and spirit behind open source, but i have been burned so many times with half-finished open source tools that show no sign of having developers willing to fix the unfun-to-work-on-issues that i have grown to fully expect it now. 


Amen to that. I always check to see if a project is VERY active before using it. Most often I just go for commercial software for that reason. It's really much cheaper to buy rather than use something that's free. Ironic, but true.


(In my ideal world all source code would be "open" but developers would get enough funding to support them while they work on the non-fun but necessary stuff and would be free from others taking their code and profiting from their work -- but that's a side issue and a pipe dream).


This is happening a lot more in the .NET and component industry now. A lot of commercial .NET components offer source code now. You can't resell it, but you can modify it. That's good enough for me.


Anyway -- nothing would please me more than hearing some announcement some day that MS fully blesses and supports the Mono project and is committed to seeing 100% cross-platform compatibility of all .net features in a timely fashion so that everything written for .net would be fully portable on win/mac/linux/etc.  I don't pretend to understand the business issues that would be involved.


So far it looks like MS has given its blessing to Moonlight and the cooperation between MS and Novell is very promising.


I'm just saying that as much as I may like a lot of .net, i'm not going to be embracing it until i know it's a viable long-term cross platform solution. My primary development platform would in all likelyhood stay on Windows, but I don't think single-platform languages are a good idea and i don't want to go down that path again.

I know what you mean. I'm generally pretty conservative, but when I first heard about .NET and looked into it, I figured that this was going to be the next big thing that would have some real longevity. Unlike most, I didn't jump into web development there - I went into application development instead.

I think that in the next few months you'll hear some good news from the Mono Project and be pleasantly surprised.


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f0dder

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2007, 04:55:29 AM »
This is happening a lot more in the .NET and component industry now. A lot of commercial .NET components offer source code now. You can't resell it, but you can modify it. That's good enough for me.
And that's imho the most important part of open source - being able to modify stuff, perhaps to fix bugs, perhaps to add features. I like commercial developers offering that kind of license, especially if they're willing to incorporate user's bugfixes and features.

Of course it's a bit dangerous for developers to release (commercial) source, as it does end up in pirated 0-day...
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mahesh2k

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2007, 07:17:41 AM »
Why microsoft made .net opensource?
Simple answer they want developers.As java and all other languages has more developers who develop in these languages in spare time as the most of the source of these language is open.Opensource languages like wxwidgets,FLTK,GTK has lot of user base.and if you didn't made your source open then definitely begineers or new developers not going to use your tools to build the language.They made .net opensource so that mono developers can use it to make .net cross paltfom.

Microsoft might be funding to make it cross platform secretely.In 2006,i remember borland revived turbo products reason was the same as they made delphi and c++ builder at such high cost and available only on cd versions.New developers had trouble for learning there tools so lot of developers switch for Visual studio 6.So apart from delphi VB6 was getting popular.Now with the release of new turbo products borland is back in action.Few years back evn apple started using BSD,Mach unix underneath the reason again the same.They even ported to intel platform as most of the population of developers are on intel.

Because of linux lot of developers are switching for the cross-platform anguages as the tools are available free of cost and available easily.Microsoft had  trouble already with linux and opensource so they started giving there tools free of charge to attract more developers for windws like Visual C++ express and other stuff.They may have more users than apple and linux,but they certainly don't have developers in amount as much as of linux,apple and unix.In order to succed you need developers as same ratio as developers.

My thinking is not to go with microsoft technologies as long as they don't make it there technology cross-platform.For those who think this is great step for micrsoft then think again microsot until and unless make software for the linux by making some announcement till then its not worth to say that there technology is cross platform.I'm not MS fan & this copier machine company doesn't get you to evolve,inovate.So i totally agree with mouser.

Its waste to invest time in MSTechnologies.It's only worth to learn to getting job we get as developer meantime otherwise i'll prefer java,wxwidgets,C++ etc.for the job if there is any opening.

I would to express more on this issue but just waiting what others think about my views.



« Last Edit: October 07, 2007, 07:24:35 AM by mahesh2k »

mahesh2k

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2007, 07:22:03 AM »
I don't know what are the updates of Mono after the release of the news just keep posting here for the details of Mono.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2007, 07:25:01 AM by mahesh2k »

Renegade

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2007, 04:43:31 PM »
I wouldn't say that it's a waste of time to get into MS technologies. They certainly open up a large market for you very quickly. At least on the desktop.

VS is also very RAD with .NET. The amount that you can get done with it is just huge. You simply can't compare that to something like ANSI C. Well, you can, but they are worlds apart.

I take the view that I'm not really betting on an "MS technology," but rather that I'm betting on the CLS (the foundation for .NET - but yes - it is really an MS initiative/technology). Mono is the only serious contender other than .NET there. Portable.net exists, but I don't really hear anything about it much and don't figure many people are adopting it.

Well see though. Novell seems committed to Linux and Mono. MS seems to be cooperating well with Novell.

It may be that MS is trying some strategy to gain more developers there. As you mentioned, they've made several free versions of VS and lowered the barrier to entry.
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mouser

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2007, 09:16:40 AM »
Here's a article from last week warning people to beware of this step by Microsoft, take it for what it's worth:
http://www.eweek.com...,1895,2191754,00.asp

Quote
Microsoft is claiming that releasing the .NET Framework reference source code under the Microsoft Reference License will give developers the opportunity to understand more about .NET.  That sounds good for open source, doesn't it? Wrong! Microsoft's so-called opening up of .NET Framework is setting a trap for open-source programmers. Open-source developers should avoid this code at all costs..


hat tip: http://www.sutor.com

Lashiec

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2007, 01:43:51 PM »
I might get trapped with I'm going to say, but it's what I feel.

It seems to me that Mr. Nichols is a bit misguided in his reasoning. First, Microsoft opening .NET is not different for Mono (giving the conditions) as if Microsoft kept the code under a veil, safe from prying eyes. Second, it's not a trap. Microsoft 'sued' the entire Linux community because they suspected that the kernel contained copyrighted code from Microsoft, and it turned all was for naught. A similar stunt with Mono will go nowhere, IMHO. Third, Mono is primarily developed by Novell, a company that most people has a cooperation agreement with Microsoft. Fourth, .NET extending to Linux and Mac is all the better for Microsoft, as for one day they want to open more fields of business (OK, the Mac is already open). Fifth, there's reverse engineering ;). And sixth, god damn, Miguel de Icaza already said the Mono community should not take a look at .NET Framework source code, I know it's tempting but... In Mr. Nichols defense, it should be noted that both entries were published the same day, so it's natural he wasn't up to date in Mono movements regarding the matter.

BTW, another use for this code opening is hinted at one of employees at Microsoft in his blog. This one came via a complicated interconnection of links, so your head may spin if I detail the entire path (mine is spinning now ;D)

I'll go to a safe place now :P

EDIT: Altered the first sentence in the second paragraph as it was unnecessarily harsh and product of a fast reaction to the article.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 01:55:21 PM by Lashiec »

mouser

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2007, 02:04:51 PM »
I certainly don't put dirty tricks beneath MS, but i have to say it does seem a bit of a reach for that article to say that the MS goal in opening up the source code is to trap groups like Mono into using their sources and then claim infringement.

Seems more likely to me that the goal might be to make the source available so that they can get free help improving it and answering security issues, while not giving up any rights and retaining full control.

But just reiterating my previous statements -- making the source code for .net available for reading does nothing for me.  My concern is simply are they going to facilitate cross-platform .net development or make active attempts to hinder it.

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2007, 05:06:34 PM »
I'm with Lashiec on this one. I don't see this as even remotely related to 'taking Mono down'. The article is just more MS hate. At best it is merely link-bait.

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mouser

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2007, 09:31:18 PM »
Scott Hanselman interview (audio) with one of the developers about the open sourcing of .net libraries:
http://hanselminutes...ault.aspx?showID=101

mahesh2k

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2007, 07:08:02 AM »
@Renegade:See i toldu it is total waste of time using MS technology.Only thing left now is to create more and more software and documentation for linux.Get yourself interested in linux apple or unix.

MS is actually in need of developers badly they are the one who stole from others ideas and then claim for the copyright violation etc.They are getting hands in every technology they copied Flash to create silverlight.now in future they'll claim as adobe violated some rules.In such case adobe will leave the platform obviusly.

I think we should get involved into linux developement,just have to lower the barrier of linux developement.We need tools to make linux developement easier.

Renegade

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2007, 08:28:35 AM »
@Renegade:See i toldu it is total waste of time using MS technology.Only thing left now is to create more and more software and documentation for linux.Get yourself interested in linux apple or unix.

MS is actually in need of developers badly they are the one who stole from others ideas and then claim for the copyright violation etc.They are getting hands in every technology they copied Flash to create silverlight.now in future they'll claim as adobe violated some rules.In such case adobe will leave the platform obviusly.

I think we should get involved into linux developement,just have to lower the barrier of linux developement.We need tools to make linux developement easier.

Actually, I bought a new box and put Suse on it. :D

I figure that Novell is putting its wieght behind Mono, so the $50 for Suse is a good buy to support a company like that.

As for Flash vs. Silverlight... Can't agree with you there. Flash is maturing, but it's going to be left in the dust by Silverlight. Adobe doesn't have a tenth of the experience in developing languages like MS does, and MS will crush them. .NET and Mono are the future for development productivity. C, assembler, Fortran, and some others will always have a place in one form or another, but when it comes to productivity... The CLS rocks. Flash is extremely heavy and no real "work" can be done in it. On the other hand, Silverlight and Moonlight have the almost the full power of a real programming language and complete framework behind them. Flash is very different from Silverlight/Moonlight, and the only thing that will keep it going is it's ubiquitousness unless Adobe gives it the real power that you'll see in the near future from truly rich Internet applications done in Silverlight/Moonlight.

As for the barrier to entry for Linux - 110% agreed! Windows and Linux are the Prince and the Pauper. Linux doesn't have the truly rich development tools that are available on Windows.

The thing is that software is becoming commoditized... I won't get into that because it really goes off on a tangent. But it should be fairly obvious that in this environment, productivity means everything. (Well, almost.)

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mahesh2k

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2007, 06:07:42 AM »
@Renegade:Thats' cool that you purchase Suse.I might have chosen Mandriva or Feddora over that but still anyway that is not making diffrence until you're on another type of kernel like debian etc.Do PM me about your OS expereince and what you feel missing in linux.

Note:Well i'm not advocating for opensource or for linux or Hating MS in any way.I'm just advocating for the freedom of coding & feel of use that we've on the platforms other windows.

Developing under windows is just for getting job done.If you're having nack for coding then it is mere waste of time.As in case of windows programmig if you're creating commercial application as an individual you need to have lot of buisness skill its really hard to sell your product among competitors.In each and every piece that is already programmed for windows,you can't reinvent the wheel & get paid or get appreciated or even enjoy for coding that piece.Windows is too crowded for small-application developers now.

The combination of Blend & Visual C# will allow you create flash style visual appliations on PC.You'll able to create graphically rich,smooth & eye candy application,dialog boxes,tooltips for the windows.That is good for MS fans.But bad for unix or linux users,mozzila will find a way to run those silverlight presentation on Firefox but still who wants to invest time on that? Instead you can make other components or applications of opensource better.

There're plenty of options out there for windows programming,but it has less documentation or tutorials in depth like borland cpp builder,wxwidgets,jbuilder etc.On the other hand,If you participated in their beta releases and conference then chances are less that you gain from there.They are using you for there purpose,and in turn what you get chance to test their new technology.What's point in that?MS people can't think beyond there own OS,i don't know why? There term for cross platform is restricted to Windows (All version) & Apple (All version).They are letting developers to handle the issue of cross-platform etc,just tell me why we need to port the MS apps on other platform if MS don't care for that,they are afraid of opensource.I'm really worried about the programmers working on Opensource MONO project.They are wasting their time on making windows .NET portable over other OS.Why? If MS is not interested or is feeling threaten by opensource concept then creating project like MONO will not reduce the barrier between MS & other opensource platforms.

We the developers,designer and user keep the platforms alive.Take simple example if we choose linux hosting server & open source application to run on that server then indirectly keeping that platform alive.Again linux has no cost os for server owner and he's getting scripting packages free of cost.The performance of linux server is again much better than windows so no arguments about that. On the other hand for most of the windows scripting packages you've to pay for that and  the windows server is not good in performance,server owner has to pay for the license amount in upgrading OS.What's the point in that?

On the other hand Apple,BSD and other linux vendors & communities listens to the users & developers. We need OS that listens to the users like we have gathering of developers(e.g.Akademy,gudac) in case of linux where they listen to users unlike giving only demos and answetring queries only like MS.The corporation like apple do give back to the community and picks good ideas from them,they do some interaction with geek people & users.That is what counts,even if apple is expensive to buy but it's worth to keep that innovative platform alive.

We need lot of need for linux developers.If you're working on any existing linux application or want to create something from scratch then,You can get funds(if you asked for it @Ubuntu or GOC) and appreciation for the code you developed.Don't forget your code gets in to the hands of users and develoeprs which in turn find it useful & usable in future versions of app or system,it gives satisfaction.Again there are no licensing issues and threats like in MS.Also even if there may exist simmilar software as urs in linux,other developers appreciate it or even ask you for help in their project or ask you to merge if u want,which is very rewarding expereince.If all these not work with you even then code for open source or atleast under linux.You'll stop monotony of MS which is must as otherwise will create no rooms for developers.

Renegade

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2007, 04:54:16 PM »
From the source himself regarding that negative article about MS & Mono:

Quote
No, it is not a death trap for Mono.

http://tirania.org/b...e/2007/Oct-05-2.html

:)
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mouser

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2007, 07:01:19 PM »
The issue for me is not that i believe MS is setting a trap by making the source code available for inspection.

My concern has always revolved around Microsoft's intentions with regarding to making dot net cross-platform, which is the issue that prevents me from embracing it.

If Microsoft want .net to be cross-platform, why not help create a cross-platform version of dot net?  I have not yet seen a clear statement about their intentions in this direction.

My concern is that MS is doing a little wink-and-a-nod thing by not explicitly coming out against a cross-platform version of dot net (Mono), but working to make it hard enough to get right, and hard enough to keep up to date that it's never going to be a clean and stable thing, so as to retain their monopoly of it.  I don't think that's being paranoid.

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Re: Microsoft providing .NET Framework source code!
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2007, 09:29:24 AM »
Not disagreeing, but I think you'll see MS slowly thawing in this area. (Or at least I'm hopeful...)

MS is in a hard place right now. Their stock has been flat for years. Google is encroaching and their stock is soaring ever higher. MS needs to do something drastic. Well, they could just be surrendering to Google too - that is an option...

Not sure what's going to happen, but as long as Mono gets going, I'm all for it.

You already know C/C++, so C# isn't much of a jump. The learning curve is called "intellisense"! :D (I love that stuff! It's the best teacher in the world.)
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker