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26  Other Software / Developer's Corner / Re: Markdown (and what do you do when a community outgrows your contribution) on: September 09, 2014, 01:19:43 PM
Did they try to take the name?

It would be similar to someone setting up a website very similar to DC and calling it "Super DonationCoder".  Whether or not that would be illegal, it wouldn't be right to do without Mouser's permission.  And even if Mouser took DC in a direction that many people didn't agree with, it wouldn't be right.

That comparison is pretty specious.  But Ok... taking it there...

So what about Github Flavored Markdown?  Or MultiMarkdown?  Or any of the other various flavors?  They neither requested nor got anything tacit or otherwise in the way of approval.  And... I could go through linking a whole lot of conversations from very long ago, in which they've tried to get Gruber onboard, and stated that they weren't trying to usurp anything from him.

But just as with discussions of the past of CommonMark, this particular discussion has run its course, I think.  Onward!  Thmbsup
27  Other Software / Developer's Corner / Re: Markdown (and what do you do when a community outgrows your contribution) on: September 09, 2014, 11:50:55 AM
Open sourcing something doesn't necessarily mean that the name of a project is up for grabs.

Did they try to take the name?  It looked like they made another variation on it to me...?
28  Other Software / Developer's Corner / Re: Markdown (and what do you do when a community outgrows your contribution) on: September 09, 2014, 09:50:01 AM
It's not a license... and several people have used it without prior permission.  And if you follow the thread of posts, they asked.  And he never gave a response.

Where I come from, if someone asks you if they can take something from you, and you do not give a reply, it doesn't automatically mean 'yes'. Neither does allowing someone to take something from you automatically allow anyone to do so.

But don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with you at all. The lack of cooperation on Gruber's part still surprises me. Especially since all they wanted was his consent (well, and the name).

They weren't trying to take anything from him... that's the thread of thought that I don't understand.

Quote
I do not want stewardship over Markdown. I want it to be a viable, community maintained open source project since millions of people rely on it. That is what open source is supposed to mean.

He made Markdown.pl open source.  Then he applied this random license to the open source license.  And no one is calling him on that.  You can't have it both ways... and this is what comes of that.  He even made the rather uninformed quote because of the licensing- "just because Markdown has a great community doesn't make it a community project."

I think one of the large things that should come out of this for developers is to *think* before you license, and understand the ramifications and be OK with it down the line.  Or... don't make it open source.
29  Other Software / Developer's Corner / Re: Markdown (and what do you do when a community outgrows your contribution) on: September 09, 2014, 08:44:31 AM
...
And that's what they did in the end after he finally made it clear that he wouldn't allow the name to be used under any circumstances.  That's after telling them that he might allow pedantic or strict markdown... which both don't convey what is being done at all. 
...

Well, the Markdown license states that the name “Markdown” may only be used with specific prior written permission. So choosing a different name right from the start, while most certainly not changing Gruber's opinion about the whole endeavor, would maybe have led to less negative reactions from some parts of the community.

It's not a license... and several people have used it without prior permission.  And if you follow the thread of posts, they asked.  And he never gave a response.  It's also open source... and he inserted closed permission type license into an open source license.  It just doesn't work that way.  Though while he attempted to wield it as such... and has indeed tried to negatively affect certain initiatives as if it were such, he in all probability (never can tell with judges) would have no legal ground to stand on.  You might argue moral or ethical grounds.  But since the licensed code itself had ambiguities and bugs... and when pressed on them as part of this initiative he said there were no bugs- then after CommonMark was released, he said he might go back to address some 'problems'- I'd argue that he already gave up the high ground on that one.

I even think that if they had branded as they are now... he would have still phrased it as they were taking his work.

But, that's neither here nor there.  They did change it, and the historical bit will very likely fade into the ether, probably faster than if they'd taken this approach to begin with.
30  Main Area and Open Discussion / Living Room / Re: The One Word Game! on: September 08, 2014, 11:02:24 PM
Ironhide
31  Main Area and Open Discussion / Living Room / Re: Switzerland-based ProtonMail, yet another secure email service on: September 08, 2014, 08:04:13 PM
Well, after getting setup... I see that this is not meant as your primary e-mail.  At least not at 100MB and 1000 messages/month...?

Considering how many people actually use encrypted mail as their primary... :shrug:

That said, yeah it doesn't seem like a whole lot, although I doubt I get more than 300 emails a month from my regular email, and I'm signed up to at least 5 subscriptions, plus Facebook and G+ notifications.  Maybe 5 messages a month through the email I give out to family and friends... maybe that's saying something.  Sad

On another end of the scale, I get more than 300 a day.   smiley
32  Main Area and Open Discussion / Living Room / Re: Switzerland-based ProtonMail, yet another secure email service on: September 08, 2014, 07:19:14 PM
I thought both were truthfully... the criminally small space and the messages per month.
33  Main Area and Open Discussion / Non-Windows Software / Re: LINUX: Remarkable - a very simple previewing Markdown editor for Linux on: September 08, 2014, 06:01:09 PM
Oh, that Qute is sweet indeed. Although I mainly use Markdown for quick drafts for later HTML conversion. But I'll take a look.

I think I might have found another favorite editor.  After playing around with it for a while, I'm quite enamored.  There are minor quibbles, and it does show itself as development software, but so far it works quite well and the parsing is more than acceptable.  And it does do what Remarkable does.  Quite pleased with that find.
34  Main Area and Open Discussion / Living Room / Re: Switzerland-based ProtonMail, yet another secure email service on: September 08, 2014, 05:39:09 PM
Well, after getting setup... I see that this is not meant as your primary e-mail.  At least not at 100MB and 1000 messages/month...?
35  Other Software / Developer's Corner / Re: Markdown (and what do you do when a community outgrows your contribution) on: September 08, 2014, 05:22:26 PM
The good thing that should come out of all of this is that developers should run, not walk, to CommonMark -- and abandon Markdown as rapidly as possible.

That's one thing I'm afraid of.  A fragmentation.  But I don't think that CommonMark should really be hit by that as it doesn't include in the spec not to render other markdown.  Just to make sure that you render this markdown.
36  Other Software / Developer's Corner / Re: Markdown (and what do you do when a community outgrows your contribution) on: September 08, 2014, 04:15:48 PM
And I've already made clear that I believe standardization -- especially in the form it was done here -- is a good and important thing.

So the only real question in my mind is what you do when the original inventor becomes an obstacle to the continuing use and development of the project.

And I think my position is that when this happens, and attempts to convince the original inventor to join the team fails, that perhaps the best solution is to make a clean break from the original name of the invention and come up with a clearly different name -- even though that could lead to some (initial or continuing) confusion for users.


Look at the links in my post above.  Specifically:

https://twitter.com/grube...status/262287246953164800

https://twitter.com/grube...status/261650083689426945

He does make it quite clear that he doesn't want to be involved.  He's also very passive aggressive about it.  The later one is after he's said he doesn't want to be involved, they as a courtesy gave it to him to make suggestions and or say anything about it.  That's where the two weeks came from.  It seems a lot like the old if I don't see it and don't acknowledge it, then maybe it will just go away approach.

I agree mouser that choosing a different name and just stating that one of the main goals was Markdown compatibility would probably have been better.


And that's what they did in the end after he finally made it clear that he wouldn't allow the name to be used under any circumstances.  That's after telling them that he might allow pedantic or strict markdown... which both don't convey what is being done at all.  What makes it even worse is that this is instructions for a parser- but because there are a lot of non-technical people interested in markdown, they don't get that this is what it is for, and that even non CommonMark Markdown will still be able to be parsed just as normal.
37  Main Area and Open Discussion / Non-Windows Software / Re: LINUX: Remarkable - a very simple previewing Markdown editor for Linux on: September 08, 2014, 02:53:29 PM
Wow - I had no idea.

I might look at that Sublime Text setup for Markdown - I like that it's cross platform.
 

Yes, its in use in quite a few applications on windows and cross platform.  If you're looking for cross platform and don't mind web based, I'd also be remiss if I didn't mention the ones that I'm using:

Markable - has an HTML to markdown converter which can be useful.  Also has some other pretty cool features.

Dillinger - Live changing of markdown flavour.

Draft - Made with a real focus on writers, and collaboration on that writing.  Just started using it, but the developer seems really responsive.

StackEdit - side by side live preview

All of them import/export/sync to/from dropbox, evernote, google drive, etc... in some form or another.  I was skeptical, until I needed a quick way to edit on a few platforms in a hurry.  Tried stackedit, and it was great for that.  Synced up to google drive and drop box.  Viewed the output in Texts and exported using that to word.  Also used in Visual Studio as what I was doing was auditing code, which made it great to keep the workflow integrated.
38  Main Area and Open Discussion / Living Room / Re: The One Word Game! on: September 08, 2014, 11:54:59 AM
monster
39  Main Area and Open Discussion / Living Room / Re: Hackers vs. gray matter on: September 08, 2014, 11:53:07 AM
Security is a practice that must be adhered to at all times ... It is not something you install and then blindly trust to just work.

+1000!
40  Main Area and Open Discussion / Non-Windows Software / Re: LINUX: Remarkable - a very simple previewing Markdown editor for Linux on: September 08, 2014, 11:47:02 AM
Some of them were indeed new to me. But I wonder why you like MD inside VS but rant about .net...

Did I rant?  Oh my... you must have read something I didn't write.  I stated a preference.  And it has to do with ClickOnce installation.  Is it not possible to like something without liking all that it offers?
41  Main Area and Open Discussion / Non-Windows Software / Re: LINUX: Remarkable - a very simple previewing Markdown editor for Linux on: September 08, 2014, 11:44:33 AM
Though not quite the same, I just came across something pretty awesome for live preview for windows Qute.  You edit paragraph by paragraph, with the currently edited paragraph being in plain text markdown... and everything else being rendered.  It looks pretty awesome.
42  Main Area and Open Discussion / Non-Windows Software / Re: LINUX: Remarkable - a very simple previewing Markdown editor for Linux on: September 08, 2014, 10:51:14 AM
I tried MarkdownPad 2 for a while... I didn't really like it, nor the fact that it was using the .NET on demand type run/install.

There are other alternatives...

MarkPad is like MarkdownPad 2... but I like the UI better.  It's also using the parser that I use for my own project... DownmarkerWPF.

MarkdownMode in Visual studio is pretty awesome.

There's also Texts, which I use for my actual writing... not only live text changes, but you can also edit a markdown file as if RTF.

And last, but definitely not least... there's mdCharm.

It's pretty much the same as Remarkable, but for windows.  That's the good part.  The bad part is that it's no longer maintained.  But the good part is that it's on github.

Oh, and for one last hit... you can configure Sublime Text to do this also.


43  Other Software / Developer's Corner / Re: Markdown (and what do you do when a community outgrows your contribution) on: September 08, 2014, 10:23:20 AM
But mouser, they did try to get him involved.  They've been trying for the whole two years that they worked on it.  And he either (a) ignored them or (b) denigrated them on social media.  Look at some of the links involved.

And truthfully, I think if they started out with the commonmark idea, they would have gotten the same reception from him, and others- that they stole it, etc.  By starting out in the Standard Markdown space... they shed a lot of that... then moved to a better space where they could say that they tried to bend over backwards to make the spec part of markdown... but were put off at every turn.

When *finally* (and I use that word for a reason) he stopped being passive-aggressive, and said that he'd not approve any permutation of Markdown with their project, they moved.  And the having to get a blessing from him?  there are so many uses of markdown in a name that he had nothing to do with.  I'm sorry... if you want control, don't make it open source, trademark your name, and protect your trademark.  

He used a bastardization of an open source license... and no one is calling him on it is the other thing that's crazy.

But I think Jeff says it best in this particular response:

Quote
I do not want stewardship over Markdown. I want it to be a viable, community maintained open source project since millions of people rely on it. That is what open source is supposed to mean.
44  Main Area and Open Discussion / Living Room / Re: The One Word Game! on: September 08, 2014, 10:16:48 AM
low
45  Main Area and Open Discussion / Living Room / Re: silly humor - post 'em here! [warning some NSFW and adult content] on: September 07, 2014, 11:38:56 PM
I'd never seen this before. At first I thought it was a parody, but no, it's the real deal.


It was in the second wave of Schoolhouse Rock vids... and they were quickly cancelled.  You'd think that we've become unable to hear the truth in a children's cartoon or something...
46  Other Software / Developer's Corner / Re: Markdown (and what do you do when a community outgrows your contribution) on: September 07, 2014, 11:16:37 PM
And it gets worse...

https://twitter.com/grube...status/507647288471470080

and it appears that Jeff Atwood has learned a lesson... even to douchey responses (though admittedly, he could have left the finally off his original tweet or used another word), he's responding better now...

https://twitter.com/codin...status/507847788592246785

Some historical context also:

https://twitter.com/grube...status/262287246953164800

https://twitter.com/grube...status/261650083689426945
47  Other Software / Developer's Corner / Re: Markdown (and what do you do when a community outgrows your contribution) on: September 07, 2014, 10:44:34 PM
Wow! I'm a big Markdown fan myself. Didn't know about this dispute though. Would be interesting to know what goes on inside Gruber's head. Seems like he missed the chance to be part of something important. I'm actually surprised how much effort the team behind CommonMark put into getting him on board. With the attitude he demonstrates, I think I would have just ignore him much sooner.

Well, he's aptly stated what goes on inside of his head.  I can't find the interview quote right now*, but he's outright said that markdown doesn't need a standard, when it's obvious that it does... especially to the end user.  I was using three different markdown tools... one to edit online so I could do it anywhere and sync via dropbox... one locally to take that sync and format it (a piece of software I'm working on and hoping to have for NANY) and one to take the formatted version and output a word document for distribution.  The amount of effort I had to do to make sure that the final product was good for distribution was painful.

Of course, it doesn't help that he is sort of acting passive aggressive about the whole thing.  He's not personally insulting CommonMark or Jeff Atwood... he's letting his followers doing it an retweeting them.



Staying classy and above the fray there...

* It was a tweet, as most things in this seem to be: https://twitter.com/grube...status/507364924340060160
48  Main Area and Open Discussion / Non-Windows Software / Re: LINUX: Remarkable - a very simple previewing Markdown editor for Linux on: September 07, 2014, 10:35:32 PM
There's actually a couple of web based apps that do the same thing.
49  Main Area and Open Discussion / Living Room / Re: The One Word Game! on: September 07, 2014, 10:33:47 PM
boys
50  Main Area and Open Discussion / Living Room / Re: The One Word Game! on: September 06, 2014, 05:13:48 PM
wagner
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