Messages

1

Living Room / Re: nearby lightning skrike kills neighbours computers (and mine)

« on: July 04, 2011, 06:51 PM »

Investing in diagnostic software does seem a bit overkill for your situation. And as the market for such software is limited, expect a high price for it as well.

-Shades (July 04, 2011, 06:13 PM)

Wow! Do you do this stuff? Disk drive manufacturers provide diagnostics for free - for decades.  Anyone who knows computers would know that.  Better computer manufacturers provide comprehensive diagnostics also for free on the drive, on a provided CD, and on the web site.

  BIOS does not do diagnostics.  All BIOS (even in the original IBM PC) provided error codes.  Error codes only report confronted problems.  A diagnostic tests every function in a machine or subsystem - including many functions that the OS and BIOS might not use.

  True computer users execute these diagnostics before failure happens.  To learn how it works and how to load it.  Diagnostics are also executed when a room is over 100 degree F.  Did this on a Dell to discover a defective memory location in the video controller.  An error that was detected before its warranty expired.  And that would have otherwise resulted in video problems maybe years later.  Another reason why diagnostics are something completely different and unknown to many computer users.

But most important, learn what exists and read what was already posted.  

Your story is why better manufacturers provide comprehensive hardware diagnostics for free.

 Why would anyone *invest* in diagnostics?  Because so few know these diagnostics exist or what diagnostics really do.

  So much time and labor in this thread could have been quickly eliminated by diagnostics.  But so many do not even know what diagnostics are.

2

Living Room / Re: nearby lightning skrike kills neighbours computers (and mine)

« on: July 04, 2011, 05:24 PM »

i don't have any real testing equipment, other than to keep swapping hardware around until i find something that doesn't work. i don't have the time for that and i wouldn't find any satisfaction in doing it either.

-nudone (July 04, 2011, 04:53 PM)

Swapping is a worst diagnostic technique.  Do you have a computer, a disk drive, and that cable?  Then you have all necessary test hardware.

  Apparently you are making assumptions rather than asking for the details.  Provided was only enough information for the executive summary.  What is done to have facts means you knew good diagnostic procedure or asked for details.  Finally you asked.

  First, only better computer manufacturers provide comprehensive hardware diagnostics for free.  That should be a major lesson for your future and for others.

  Second,  every minimally acceptable disk drive manufacturer also provided comprehensive hardware diagnostics for free.   Download those diagnostics from drive manufacturer site or from bootdisk.com

3

Living Room / Re: nearby lightning skrike kills neighbours computers (and mine)

« on: July 04, 2011, 04:02 PM »

I'm beginning to really hate computers. I think I'll just go and bury my head in the sand until the machine explodes in a spectacular fashion.

-nudone (July 04, 2011, 02:32 PM)

It’s not the computer that is a problem.  You keep ignoring posts you don't like.  Feelings and subjective recommendations should be nowhere in this discussion.  As a result, you are confused and frustrated.

  What you need to know about the cable was already suggested. 

Your story is why better manufacturers provide comprehensive hardware diagnostics for free.  That find failures by first identifying them.   

  Does the cable work?  Is it sufficient?  Why so many answers and you still do not have one?  Even citations did not provide numbers; were only subjective; were only speculation.  To not be confused means ignoring every post that is subjective, that does not say why, and does not include numbers.

  What is the worst case test for disk drive access - unique only to your machine?  Comprehensive hardware diagnostics.  That (and a backup machine) has always been your best solution.

  Computers are easily.  Hard part is unlearning bad habits. Hard for most is to love what is best - posts only with technical facts and numbers.  Recommendations that are subjective, without reasons why, and without numbers are best ignored.  Then computers get much easier.

  You have no idea if the SATA cable is relevant.  Even diagnostics were not executed.

4

Living Room / Re: nearby lightning skrike kills neighbours computers (and mine)

« on: July 03, 2011, 08:50 AM »

  Currently unknown is if that cable solved a problem or only cured symptoms. For example, a cold or broken solder joint on the motherboard or disk drive still exists.  Many would then blame a loose cable that (if properly constructed) must never be jarred loose by moving a machine (Michael Dell did not have routine cable problems when his machines were moved far more violently by shippers.)

   Actual problem was not identified before it was changed.  Just another reason why better computer manufacturers have and use comprehensive hardware diagnostics.

  What happens if you have future problems?  Will you again spend hours of frustration trying to solve what could have been identified in minutes by diagnostic software?

  Why a problem even existed, the resulting frustration, and excessive time to find a trivial problem: that is the real lesson.   Comprehensive hardware diagnostics would have identified this problem immediately, without doubt, and without hassle.  Diagnostics also convert future failures into obvious solutions.  Diagnostics are even necessary for a useful burn-in test.  Burn-in test that finds a defect (ie cold or broken solder joint) before it becomes a problem.  Comprehensive diagnostics are necessary even for effective burn-in testing.

  They hope you never discuss or complain about what should have existed and was used even before shipping.

5

Living Room / Re: nearby lightning skrike kills neighbours computers (and mine)

« on: July 02, 2011, 06:14 PM »

I replaced the sata cable connected to the solid state drive with one of the 'special ones' still wrapped up in the motherboard box. This suddenly allowed windows to install perfectly.
...
If you want something done properly, then you better do it yourself.

-nudone (July 02, 2011, 05:22 PM)

  Your story is why better manufacturers provide comprehensive hardware diagnostics for free.  That find failures by first identifying them.   And to also locate strange problems later when your working machine suddenly goes funky.

  Windows intentionally works around and tries to avoid failures.  Windows is a poor hardware diagnostic tool.   Is it Windows or hardware?  More confusion when comprehensive diagnostics are not provided.

  Burn-in was never about executing diagnostics overnight.  That myth perverts a well proven diagnostic procedure.   Burn-in is literally just that.  A computer is heated to over 100 degrees F.  Then tested.  Computers that are defective but still work at 70 degrees F will quickly identify an existing and 'what will get worse' defect when tested at a completely ideal room temperature:  100 degrees F.  That is always what burn-in was.  And how to find a defect long before its warranty expires.

6

Living Room / Re: nearby lightning skrike kills neighbours computers (and mine)

« on: June 30, 2011, 10:56 AM »

it'll be cheaper for me to replace the computer parts than have a proper electrical system installed.

-nudone (June 30, 2011, 06:14 AM)

  You are not just protecting a computer.  That surge simply selected a best path to earth.  Today a computer.  Next time, the furnace or dishwasher.

  All appliances have superior protection.  Protectors adjacent to appliances may compromise that protection.  Most (ie UPS) do not even claim to provide protection.  View its spec numbers.  Where does it list protection from each type of surge?  It doesn't.  Protection exists in hearsay.  See its hundreds of joules?  Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules.  But near zero joules means it can claim 100% protection in advertising and myths.

  Protectors are effective only when that energy is not inside.  Therefore many install  ‘secondary’ protection.  Hundreds of thousands of joules are absorbed harmlessly outside by earthing only one ‘whole house’ protector.

  Your 'primary' protection is installed by the utility often at each transformer.  In every case, a protection layer is only defined by one always required item – earth ground.  No earth ground means a protector is not effective.

  Some numbers.  Surges that can overwhelm superior protection inside appliances occur maybe once every seven years.  UK typically suffers less often.

  That once every X years is the reason for surge protection.  And not just from lightning.  Also from other just as destructive anomalies.  So that destructive energy is not inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances.

   Many will spend the 1 quid per protected appliance for a superior solution.  How often do you need it?  What is a ten or twenty year history in your neighborhood?  Was it one event every twenty years.  Or does your part of town suffer more often?  A typical number throughout the world is maybe once every seven years.  Therefore many earth one ‘whole house’ protector.  UPS specs really do not claim effective protection.

7

Living Room / Re: Battery Backup - Get One

« on: July 02, 2009, 05:40 PM »

  Let's see, my electric goes through three fuse boxes, my computer system is on a battery backup plugged into a voltage regulator to prevent the battery backup from constantly switching from online to offline while on generator power.  I think I'm pretty well protected... 

-Tinman57 (July 01, 2009, 08:28 PM)

  You may be protected.  But your electronics are not.  Fuses do  not protect electronics or appliances.  Fuses only stop fires from happening after the damage has been done.  Fuses, circuit breakers, etc are only for protecting human.  Even the UPS does not provide and does not claim to provide appliance protection.

8

Living Room / Re: Battery Backup - Get One

« on: June 08, 2009, 01:45 AM »

No offence but while it may not be an acceptable failure mode, it is a fact of life.  Everything is subject to catastrophic failure no matter how well engineered or designed it is. 

-4wd (June 08, 2009, 01:05 AM)

And airplanes don't crash.  Why is an airliner crash international news?  Because the event is so close to zero as to be virtually zero.

  Catastrophic failure is unacceptable because house fires are unacceptable.  Still, they happen.  So we installed things that 'virtually' do not suffer catastrophic failure - ie 'whole house' protectors.  And locate them where failure is less likely to create fire - ie service entrance.  Plug-in protectors have a (relatively) high failure rate (which is why another international standard is forthcoming) and get located where fire risk is higher.

  Why is that failure rate so high?   Failures promotes sales.  "My protector sacrificed itself to save my computer."   Some protectors are designed to maximize profits - not protection.  Take a $3 power strip.  Add some $0.10 parts.  Sell it for $25 or $150.

  Anything they can do to make that fuse trip faster means less fire threat - and even more promoting the protector.  But limits exist. If the fuse blows too easily, then it does not even quality as a protector in UL or equivalent 'human safety' testing.

  Meanwhile, your fuse must be in the wrong spot. That thermal fuse must extinguish a light when it blows. More often, that light is a Neon glow lamp.  Easier to power on 240 volts.

9

Living Room / Re: Battery Backup - Get One

« on: June 07, 2009, 10:44 PM »

Almost all 'cheap-o' surge suppressors I've seen, (or have), use MOVs because they're cheaper than circuit-breakers. A typical cheap surge suppressor circuit is, (taken straight off one I just pulled apart):

-4wd (June 07, 2009, 10:20 PM)

That circuit is incorrect.  View MOV datasheets.  Leakage currents are well below 1 ma.  An LED requires at least 10 ma.  Furthermore, 1 milliamp through an MOV is a test current for its threshold voltage - a voltage well above what should be on AC mains.

  Circuit breaker does nothing for surge protection for so many reasons.  CB is a device required for every power strip – with or without protector circuits. Installed only for human safety.

 Thermal fuse is required so that a failing (grossly undersized) MOV does not create fire.  Thermal fuse disconnects MOVs long before an MOV conducts anywhere near what might be its maximum protection.  Sometimes the fuse does not work which is why most fire departments have been called for protector fires.  Problems detailed in so many previous examples and in Norma’s quoted experience.

  MOV is effective if it has something to divert surge energy into.  That means a low impedance (ie ‘less than 3 meter’) connection to single point earth ground.  No earth ground means no effective protection.  No earth ground means a protector may divert that surge destructively inside the building – maybe destructively though some appliances.

  Meanwhile your circuit is incorrect – is missing other critical connections.  Your assumption is that the MOV can fail catastrophically.  As repeatedly noted, that is not an acceptable failure mode.  Again, read page one of every MOV datasheet.

  How is the light connected?  See the picture where all MOVs are removed – and the light says that protector is still good:
  http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

10

Living Room / Re: Battery Backup - Get One

« on: June 07, 2009, 10:24 PM »

Enough is enough, Judging by your joined on date & first post you joined this board for the sole purpose of launching a rather highhanded & condescending attack on me.

-Stoic Joker (June 07, 2009, 07:53 PM)

 You have assumed attacks.  I have been trying to get you to stop thinking failure is acceptable.  I have been trying to explain why you had damage that was never acceptable.  That the battery backup did not protect the computer – just like the manufacturer specs state.  And I have been trying to get you to install what is all but required in every FL building.  Required but not always installed especially in pre-1990 buildings.

  I have not attacked you - ever.  But I have been bluntly honest.  How many engineers have provided a solution AND explained why that solution works – with numbers?    You have taken information that is too new to grasp (for now).  Then assumed that was an attack.  No.  You have a bias as entrenched as the many who just knew Saddam had WMDs.  Many take personally what is only the fact when that fact contradicts what was always assumed.

  Hopefully you will appreciate what has just happened here.  I am trying to demonstrate why the popular myths are wrong.  How protection is routinely installed to not have damage even from direct lightning strikes.   You had damage.  That is a completely failure of any protection you thought you had.  And the effective solution costs less money.   A majority routinely deny this reality, in part, because the concept is just too new - even if these principles have been well established and routine for over 100 years.  Deny for the same reasons why so many *knew* Saddam had WMDs.

  Notice how many posts are based in radio communication.  That is where most of the original research was conducted AND where the best experience is learned that applies even to munitions dumps and homes.  Either you can aggressively deny what has long been the well proven technique.  Or you could ask for further clarification and assistance.  Why?  Because the effective solution means no damage no matter what lightning strikes.  And that solution also means others lesser surges are irrelevant – do not cause damage.

  Your choice.

   Meanwhile, others can either learn from your denials or learn from your curiosity.

11

Living Room / Re: Battery Backup - Get One

« on: June 07, 2009, 06:42 PM »

You can’t have it both ways. You are saying the a strike … hit a … pine tree (which has a 30-40 foot tap root), but decided to completely ignore its already being deep underground and decided to come back up through a ground rod which is on the (lengthwise) opposite end of the house … and exists for the sole purpose of directing surges downward?

-Stoic Joker (June 07, 2009, 05:39 PM)

Again you are making assumptions rather than read what was posted.  Did you see the phrase about earthborne charges miles away?  Apparently not.  Without understanding the principles, then you misrepresented what was posted; did not grasp what was posted.  What was posted has been understood for most of the last 100 years.  There is no contradiction.  But there is a reader who is having difficulty dismissing and forgetting the myths he once believed.

  In one location, surge protection was properly installed.  Damage occurred.  Why?  In earth were veins of graphite.  Since earth was not monolithic, protection system (earthing) needed upgrading.  They had what you have described – pockets of more conductive earth.

  Tightening grounds is nice.  And does little for better earthing.  For example, how does the 6 AWG ground wire connect to a ground rod?  Up over the foundation and down to that rod.  Sufficient to meet code.  And insufficient for surge protection.  That ground wire must go through the foundation and down; to be shorter, no sharp bends, separated from other wires, etc.  

  Meanwhile a lightning strike to the tree could have also forked off into AC electric, buried power line, etc.  Most all strikes leave no apparent indication.  With questions, we eventually discover they had no idea where lightning struck.  They assumed  - then converted assumptions into fact.  Same problem is repeated often in this thread.

  I provided only a sample of reasons why you had damage from a struck tree.   As a novice, you might finally begin to learn this stuff in highly regarded application notes from Polyphaser:
  http://www.polyphaser.com/technical_notes.aspx
Warning: this may be tough reading if too attached to many erroneous myths.  Too many make assumptions and therefore need to reread it more often.  You see contradictions only because you have not grasp some basic concept.

  From information provided, your had damage because and the solution begins with earthing.  If earth has pockets of more conductive earth (lime rock mines) or if a major pipeline passes nearby, then your earthing needs additional improvements.  If at the end of a AC distribution system approaching from the west, then frequency of damage would be even higher – more corrections required.  How to do this is more complex.  But the description of your damage is typical of bad earthing and no ‘whole house’ protection.

  Most homes are still built as if transistors do not exist.  Surge protection starts when footings are poured.  Many supplement a weak protection system with compromises.  Some foolishly think a cold water pipe entering on the other side of the basement is good earthing.  Wrong – for so many reasons posted previously.

  Bottom line in any facility: if damage results, then corrections start with a study of earthing.

12

Living Room / Re: Battery Backup - Get One

« on: June 07, 2009, 05:13 PM »

After taking a look you were more or less right about reaction times, however I found a schematic (near the bottom of the page) which explains better what I meant. ... the best reaction time is 1.2 µsec

-Shades (June 07, 2009, 04:28 PM)

  Your citation is more commonly known as a GFCI or RCB.  If the outgoing current does not match the incoming current, then the breaker assumes a human is being shocked – and cuts off power.

  Will a switch stop a surge?  Of course not.  Surges are currents whose voltage increase, as necessary, to blow through any blocking device.  Why do surges find no problem conducting through 3 miles of the most non-conductive material – air?

  Furthermore, switches always take milliseconds.  Even fast blow fuses take milliseconds.

  To do 1.2 usec, the power must be controlled by semiconductors.  That means the blocking ability is even less.

  Appreciate what it is blocking?  A constant voltage of 240 VAC.   Surge voltages typically go to 6000 volts when something tries to stop the surge.  Your source says the electronic device must withstand 6000 to 8000 volts. That is not stop it.  That is survive a current pulse that, if stopped, could generate those voltages.  The standard solution – to not block those currents so that a massive voltage is not created.  Not block as in let the surge go where it wants to.  Don’t try to do any surge protection.

  GFCIs, et al have become standard in the industrial world since first demonstrated in the 1960s.

13

Living Room / Re: Battery Backup - Get One

« on: June 07, 2009, 03:48 PM »

In Holland any electrical installation you can think of has to be grounded...by law. Insurance companies don't even pay if your house burns down because of an electrical failure if no proper grounding is in place.

-Shades (June 07, 2009, 03:19 PM)

Earthing has long been required everywhere.  However surge protection in the US required earthing that both meets and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code requirements.    A date that suggests how many homes still have woefully insufficient earthing.

  An example.  One FL couple had lightning repeatedly strike an outside bathroom wall.  They installed lightning rods.  Lightning again struck that bathroom wall.  Why?  Lightning rods were only earthed in sand with 8 foot (3 meter) ground rods.  Bathroom plumbing made a better connection to deeper limestone.   Lightning avoided ightning rods to obtain a better connection to earth.

  For surge protection, earthing also must be single point (as demonstrated why in a previous post).  Ufer grounding or equivalent is routine in FL due to poorer conductive sand and the higher frequency of surges. And then all incoming utilities are earthed short, no sharp bends, etc to that single point earth ground.  If the cable enters from the other side, then the house has been setup to have surge damage.

  Circuit breakers never stop damage.  A circuit breaker's function is to disconnect power after something has failed.  Protection of human life from fire created by already existing damage.

   Now put numbers to it.  A circuit breaker takes tens of milliseconds to respond.  A surge is done in microseconds.  300 hundred consecutive surges could exist and the circuit breaker still never trips.

  A circuit breaker would stop or block what three miles of sky could not?  Of course not.  Never happens.  That damning fact defines the difference between effective protection (ie a 'whole house' protetor or why nothing inside the church was damaged) verses a protector that magically absorbs surges.  The one factor that defines even how good a protector is – earth ground.  No earth ground means no effective protection.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

  This is not popular in retail stores where such protectors (and earthing) are not sold.

14

Living Room / Re: Battery Backup - Get One

« on: June 07, 2009, 03:29 PM »

 A nearby utility pole strike is discharged through all routes to ground (e.g. houses on the block). Being spread out lessens its impact on any one individual dwelling. … If however the strike hits (a tree towards the back of the house (opposite the service entry point) the system is effectively back fed which puts a rather different spin on the proverbial ball.

-Stoic Joker (June 07, 2009, 01:50 PM)

 Exactly.  Slowly we are working towards reality.  Apparently you don’t realize the ground rod must be the single point earth ground.   Again, you are too quick to challenge rather than learn the significance of what you have just posted.    Failure to install the single point earthing means a struck tree is also a direct connection to household appliances if the building earthing is performed incorrectly.

  So why would you have damage?  Follow the current from cloud to earth.  Down to the tree, through earth, up the ground rod, into the building through appliances, out the other side of the building via improper earthing, then miles to those distant charges.  That is why homes are routinely built or upgraded with Ufer grounds or equivalent.

  Same problem was in the Orange County emergency facilities.  So they installed no plug-in protectors.  Instead they fixed the problem:
    www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm

Why did you have damage?  According to your own words, defective earthing.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.   And yours apparently sucks.

  Yes, direct strikes to AC mains are distributed to all homes – as IEEE papers discussed.  So a 50,000 amp surge is distributed to all homes – 12,000 amps?  Or, some homes take the brunt of that surge. Which direction will currents go to find those earthborne charges?  Reality – a direct strike to AC mains is a current that seeks earth ground even through household appliances.   Induced surges are not destructive.  Damage is when the surge current is not properly earthed – conducts destructively through appliances.

  Contrary to what you imply – it is routine to have direct lightning strikes to the utility wires or that tree – and no damage.  But it requires a human to first learn the concept.  No foolishly buy plug-in solution that do not even claim such protection.  In your case, the computer saved itself.  The battery backup was so pathetic as to be damaged by a trivial surge.

  Moving on, you are confusing big with effective.   All that AC mains conditioning equipment has little involvement with surges.  It mostly addresses other problems including harmonics, brownouts, blackouts, and noise.  

  Did you view the chambers where every wire entering the building is first earthed (as short as possible) to single point earth ground?  Then you never saw nor learned about surge protection.  You never learned what has been standard surge protection for over 100 years.  That is my point.  We know how surge protection works for over 100 years.  That battery backup violates those principles as well as not even claim such protection.  Why would you recommend something when the manufacturer will not even make that claim?

  Many only believe the first thing a told by a retail store salesman.  You have described the reason for surge damage: your earthing is defective.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground – which is why that telco CO has massive earthing.

15

Living Room / Re: Battery Backup - Get One

« on: June 07, 2009, 01:42 PM »

 

Although there are units, typically the higher quality ones, that have a type of indicator of how the protection circuit is functioning.  Some that have a separate indicator, ...

-bob99 (June 07, 2009, 12:49 PM)

 So how did we design that?  Normal failure mode for MOVs is degrading.  Nothing inside a protector can report that 10% voltage change.  Don’t agree?  Then tell us how degradation is measured?

  Another failure is catastrophic.  MOV manufacturers say that failure is not acceptable anywhere.  It occurs when a surge is so large as to vaporize the MOV.  LED can only report that failure mode.   If a surge as so large as to be indicated by the light, the protector was grossly undersized – even a fire threat [see scary pictures].

 Meanwhile, a degraded protector (an acceptable failure mode) will never report that failure on its light.    So manufacturers simply forgets to mention what that light really reports.  Others will fill in the blanks with myths and half truths.

  View this picture.  MOVs are completely removed from the protector and the light still says it is good.  Just another example of what that light will not report in better protectors:
 http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

  If AC is so full of other destructive surges, then we are all trooping to the hardware store daily to replace dimmer switches, GFCIs, and clock radios?  What protects the dishwasher?  Have you replaced that dimmer switch today?   Reality:  all appliances – even dimmer switches - contain internal protection that makes trivial surges irrelevant.  Those other surges are myths promoted by the naive.   If those surges exist, then you are replacing electronics in the furnace how many times a day?
  
  Install one effective surge protector to make lightning irrelevant.  That same solution  (for about $1 per protected appliance) makes minor surges irrelevant. If those power strip or battery backup protectors really did anything, then every poster in every reply has quoted those specs.  Nobody has because no manufacturer claims that protection.  And so the unsubstantiated myths and half truths (ie other surges) are posted even without citation – even without any numbers.  No numbers is the characteristic of junk science reasoning.

  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  Just another reason why COs everywhere in the world routinely suffer 100 surges during every thunderstorm – and no damage must ever occur.   Telcos spend tens or 100 times less money to have real world protection.  That means wasting no money on ineffective plug-in solutions – when even the indicator LED deceives.  Those plug-in protectors are classic examples of lulling into a false sense of security.  Where does it even claim to provide protection?  No one has yet to post those spec numbers - for good reason.

16

Living Room / Re: Battery Backup - Get One

« on: June 07, 2009, 11:00 AM »

I started the thread by stating (rather clearly) that it was damn near (but hence not) a direct hit. But never the less close enough to have a rather noticeable impact.

-Stoic Joker (June 07, 2009, 12:40 AM)

   You are assuming it was only a nearby hit.  However once we trace the surge path, nearby hits are discovered to be direct hits.  For example, a nearby strike to utility wires down the street is a direct lightning strike to your household appliances.

  A nearby hit was only 50 feet from a 100 foot long antenna.  That induced thousands of volts on that antenna.  So we installed an NE-2 neon glow lamp on the antenna lead. That lamp conducted milliamps of current causing thousands of volts to drop to ten.  Induced surges are that trivial.  A milliamp neon glow lamp is even used as a surge protector because induced surges are myths - only create damage when the electronics has no protection.  All appliances contain protection that makes induced surges irrelevant.  Only direct strikes cause the damage you saw.  But then which one of us actually did this stuff? 

  Lightning strikes a lightning rod.  A direct strike.  Lighting traveled to earth on a wire only four feet away from a PC.  That 20000 amps created electromagnetic fields only feet outside the building.  And the computer did not crash.  Did not even flicker.  Why?  Those induced surges  get promoted using junk science.  Those induced surges are subjective myths.  Those induced surges are so trivial as to be earthed even by an NE-2 neon glow lamp.   What you had was a direct strike and protection so inferior as to suffer damage.

  There is a difference between us.  I learned this stuff by doing it.  And thinking like an engineer.  You saw something.  Observation alone was sufficient to make a conclusion?  No.  Observation without first learning how this stuff works creates junk science.  Your conclusions based only on observation are classic junk science.  Myths the manufacturer needs so that you will promote his ineffective products.  Where is that numeric spec that claims protection?  You could not provide it for very good reason.  So you made a junk science conclusion.

17

Living Room / Re: Battery Backup - Get One

« on: June 07, 2009, 10:41 AM »

"The MOV is the heart of surge suppressors. The role of the MOV is to divert surge current. However, MOVs wear out with use. As more surges are diverted, the MOVs life span shortens, and failure becomes imminent."

-bob99 (June 07, 2009, 09:45 AM)

 All quite true.  And then we add facts.  A protector designer views numbers.  Then designs so that degradation becomes irrelevant.   As noted,  what a protector must never do.  Fail.  Fail so that its thermal fuse trips and the light indicates failure.  That failure light only reports one type of failure ... that must never happen.  See scary pictures for further problems.

  Failed surge protectors will continue to operate as a power strip because nothing exists between the surge and appliance.  Surge confronts appliance and protector equally.  A surge too small to overwhelm protection in the computer can still overwhelm the surge protector.  Making it woefully too small gets the naive to promote myths and sales.  "My surge protector scarified itself to save my computer."  Reality: protection inside the appliance protected itself.  A failing protector gets the naive to recommend a grossly overpriced and woefully ineffective protector.

  Effective protection means nobody even knew the surge existed.  Protectors did not fail.  Your telco switching computer (CO) suffer maybe 100 surges during every thunderstorm.   How often has your entire town been without phone service for four days while they replace that computer?  Surge protection from direct lightning is that routine when using protector that actually connect to protection.  No power strip protector even claims such protection.  But again.  Read the manufacturer datasheet.  Where does it list each type of surge and protection from that surge?  It does not even claim protection.  So why do some here *know* a protector is protection?  Word association.  "Protector" sounds like "protection".  Therefore it must be protection.

  Grossly undersizing the protector means no effective protection.  It also means these scary pictures:
 http://www.hanford.g...e=556&parent=554
 http://www.westwhite...rge%20Protectors.pdf
 http://www.ddxg.net/...surge_protectors.htm
 http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
 http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol
 http://www3.cw56.com...icles/local/BO63312/
 http://www.nmsu.edu/...rgeprotectorfire.htm
 http://www.pennsburg.../fullstory.php?58339

      Norma on 27 Dec 2008 in alt.fiftyplus entitled "The Power Outage" also describes the danger of power strip protectors:
>  Today, the cable company came to replace a wire.  Well  the cable
> man pulled a wire and somehow yanked loose their "ground" wire.
> The granddaughter on the computer yelled and ran because sparks
> and smoke were coming from the power surge strip.

  That same protector may be on a pile of desktop papers, or behind furniture on the rug?  That same protector circuit is in the OP's solution.  What did it do?  A surge too small to harm the computer AND also 100 other 'unprotected' appliance somehow harmed the battery backup?  Of course. What protected the dishwasher? Instead, that unacceptable failure got to OP to recommend it without first learning how the technology works.

  Every telco CO suffers 100 surges during every thunderstorm - without damage.  They use something far less expensive AND that remains functional every after direct lightning strikes.   OP is invited (repeatedly)  to post those specs that claim his protector provides protection.  He will not because he cannot.  No such protection specs exist.  His own example demonstrates a completely ineffective protector.  And still he recommend that grossly undersized protector using speculation – without first learning what happened.  A surge much too small to harm that computer easily destroyed the protector.  The protector did what its numeric specifications said it would do – fail.

18

Living Room / Re: Battery Backup - Get One

« on: June 06, 2009, 11:44 PM »

My only point is that protection devices can weaken and not be as effective and some you won't know if they are still working.

-bob99 (June 06, 2009, 06:17 PM)

 That point is accurate when we add a few facts.  For example, that is true for one type of protector component - MOVs.  And then we add other facts (the numbers).  When properly sized, MOV degradation becomes insignificant.

  Meanwhile, at least one of your citations makes the important point.
> Transient protection devices attempt to re-direct the energy

Diverting surges - not stopping or sacrificing itself - is what protectors do.  But a protector that has nothing to divert energy into may divert that surge energy destructively through the adjacent appliance.

  Why are every FL telco switching computers, connected on overhead wires all over town, not damaged?  Is everyone in the OP’s town without phone service for four days?  Of course not.  Telcos do what every FL homeowner does to not have surge damage.  Telcos connect every protector short to earth ground.  For a homeowner, short would mean 'less than 10 feet'.  Surges diverted to earth need not find earth ground destructively inside the building.

Returning to the OP’s post.    OP’s battery backup provided no protection.  A surge was too small to overwhelm protection in that server and numerous other household devices.   Surge too small to harm most appliances converted a battery backup into a victim.  Internal appliance protection is not overwhelmed if a surge is earthed before entering the building.

  What does a protector do?
> Transient protection devices attempt to re-direct the energy
which is why effective protectors are located where utility wires enter the building AND make that short connection to earth ground.  Earth – where surge energy is harmlessly dissipated.  Earthing is what telcos have been doing for over 100 years to have no damage.   OP’s surge was not earthed; was permitted destructively inside the building.

19

Living Room / Re: Battery Backup - Get One

« on: June 06, 2009, 05:27 PM »

  What is this protection and filtering?  Where are the numbers for this?

  Noted was how properly sized protectors fail - they degrade.  Any protector damaged by a surge provided no protection, violated absolute maximum specs from the manufacturer, and is how to get the naive to buy more such protectors at exaggerated costs.

  Effective protection means you never even knew the surge existed.    Still some believe these outright lies that a protector will somehow stop what three miles of sky could not.  That a few hundred joules in a power strip will absorb surges of hundreds of thousands of joules.  Some are so easily lied to as to believe protectors are sacrificial devices.

  Any informed resident in FL knows what is essential for and what provides surge protection:
   http://members.aol.c...m/gfretwell/ufer.jpg

  Either a surge is harmlessly absorbed before entering the building.  Or it will find paths to earth destructively through an appliance.  The scam is to grossly undersize a protector so that its failure light reports failure.  That gets the naïve to recommend more of them. Then claim that magic box will block what three miles of sky could not stop.  Nothing stops a surge.  And surge damage is routinely averted by techniques well proven even 100 years ago. Effective protection means a protector earths a direct lightning strike, the surge does not enter the building, and the protector remains functional.

  That surge hit the server and UPS simultaneously and equally.  Protection already exists inside all electronics (ie that server).  But a surge too small to overwhem protection in the server easily destroyed a grossly undersized UPS protector circuit.  No problem.  If that UPS is purchased using myths, then the damage gets the naive to buy more ineffective protectors.  Effectively earthed protector is even necessary to protect UPSes that have virtually zero protection.  Enough to claim a subjective 'surge protection' in color glossy sales brochures.  But virtually zero protection.

  If honest in that seminar, far more important than a summary conclusions were numbers and what those numbers represent.  If selling a scam on junk science, then numberrs are not provided - just like the zero protection inside that battery backup device.   If they did not provide numbers, then what scam was being promoted?    Those who want to be scammed even think filtering will stop what three miles of sky could not – set themselves up to be scammed.

  So what were they selling in that seminar?